A profound and spiritual moment, my first blade in Polish and papered arrived

[Jon]

I know I’ve posted a fair but this week but it’s been an exciting and now spiritual time purchasing and now finally getting in my hand my first papered and in Polish Nihonto ( and as a 50 year old emergency department department bod and developer of emergency care systems who’s seen everything that’s saying something).

 

So was I happy with investing in this blade…to right,  as I said I did not quite realise how uplifting it would be to own this little piece of human history and art.

 

so the unboxing pictures ( it’s my baby and I don’t feel guilty in bombing this pictures. May I present my Yoshimasa.

[Jon]

More pictures 

[Jon]

More

[Jon]

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[Jon]

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[Jon]

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[Jon]

Last few

[Jon]

The blade is In perfect Polish any marks or discolour is just poor picture taking.

[Scogg]

Looks amazing Jon, congratulations! I love the long ubu nakago, and the hamon looks more interesting in your photos than the pervious pictures I saw 
 

Can’t wait to get my own first papered blade. Cheers!  

[Brian]

Lovely looking sword in very good polish, congrats!

[Mister Gunto]

Beautiful blade!

[mywei]

5 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

Looks amazing Jon, congratulations! I love the long ubu nakago, and the hamon looks more interesting in your photos than the pervious pictures I saw 
 

Can’t wait to get my own first papered blade. Cheers!  

It's not ubu though!

[Scogg]

5 minutes ago, mywei said:

It's not ubu though!

Oops, my mistake! I love the look of the long nakago nonetheless.  My beginner is showing 

 

thank you for the correction 

[dimitri]

Very nice,  congratulations 👏👏

[Jon]

2 hours ago, mywei said:

It's not ubu though!

Hi Matt  I find this bit fascinating and I’m trying to understand what makes it easy to recognise a machi okuri or Suriage. Now I assumed that two mekugi Ana means machi okuri or suriage..but I’m reading a number of papers that indicate this is not always the case. But I’ve been doing some reading and found a great article from the to-Ken society UK (Real Life Kantei of swords #16: About the position of the mekugi ana in the nakago W. B. Tanner and F. A. B. Coutinho) 

they highlight the following.

 

 (Yokoyama (1995)) the beginning of the Edo era. According to Yokoyama there was a change in the size of the sword fittings (kanagu) between these eras. In the kanagu of the latter part of the Muromachi and Momoyama periods, short fuchi with low koshi are conspicuous and thin tsuba are more prevalent. On the other hand, in the beginning of the Edo era, the koshi of the fuchi became long and the thickness of the tsuba increased. Therefore, the position of the mekugi ana was moved away from the imaginary line connecting the ha-machi to the mune-machi. Yokoyama presents several examples of swords with two mekugi ana but no sign of being machi okuri or suriage and he argues that the lower upper mekugi is the original one. In fact, in one of his examples the upper mekugi is plugged. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule since the styles of koshirae varied.

 

Fimio (1991)) draws attention to an observation he made at gun shows in the USA in the eighties. There was an abundance Shinto swords, of not great quality, unpolished, mumei, and having two mekugi ana but with no trace of being machi okuri or suriage. 

 

Thay also go on to comment that during the Edo period sword hardware (kanagu) was standardized. The kashira was required to be of a square shape and most of the hardware had to be made of shakudo nanako alloy metal including the tsuba. As a result of this, much of the sword ornamentation during the Edo period was standardized in shape and fitment. In examining multiple swords with two or more meguki ana, it was discovered that the majority of tanto had two hole spaced approximately 1cm apart. For wakizashi and katana, the spacing was generally 2 cm apart. This consistancy in spacing could easily be attributed to the fact that tanto may have multiple mounts, such as an aikuchi koshirae and a chisagatana koshirae. The addition of a tsuba and seppa to an aikuchi style mount would require the 1cm of additional spacing. For wakizashi and katana, the additional 2cm of
 spacing could also be attributed to the change and standardization of sword fittings in the Edo period.

 

so to be sure it’s machi okuri or Suriage there needs to something about the NAKAGO to make it clearly suriage, but in my hand I cannot see what that would be as the Mei is complete and it’s seemingly a very well shaped NAKAGO, with the total lenght of the blade and NAKAGO being 95.5 cm which. Is a pretty good length as I understand it. ( blade being 70.2cm) Any advice as spotting suriage and machi okuri seems to be a skill one needs.

[Scogg]

After looking closer, I think I discovered why. As a beginner, Im prepared to be humbled again here

 

I think the big sign that it’s suriage, is that the hamon continues into the corrosion of the nakago rather than tapering off just past the hamachi. In addition, the last character of kanji being so close to the nakagojiri

[SteveM]

My first clue that the nakago was suriage was the photo in the 1st post in this thread

 

[mywei]

Jon have a look at these ubu examples and compare the shape of nakago to yours

 

Also have a look at the file markings on your nakago and see where they end to get an idea of how much has been shortened

 

https://www.seiyudo.com/ka-060922.htm

 

https://www.samurais....jp/sword/12114.html

[Jon]

7 hours ago, SteveM said:

My first clue that the nakago was suriage was the photo in the 1st post in this thread

 

Indeed, I’m not doubting it’s Suriage, lots of wise people have said it is, but I’m trying to learn how to recognise it and  especially how to spot machi okuri. In my simple mind I had assumed that two or more mekugi Ana = Suriage or Machi Okuri…now clearly I was being very simple in that understanding…so onward with the journey for knowledge, as the next blade I buy may say Ubu in the description but have 2 mekugi Ana and I want to be sure I know what I’m buying.

[Jon]

6 hours ago, mywei said:

Jon have a look at these ubu examples and compare the shape of nakago to yours

Hi Matt, brilliant Thankyou, yes you can see the Mei is far more central on these examples,  you can also see the Hamon clearly ends in these pictures where as Sam noted there is no clear end to the Hamon on my blade. 
 

Jon

[Jon]

9 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

is that the hamon continues into the corrosion of the nakago rather than tapering off just past the hamachi.

Hi Sam, yes Thankyou, when you look an my blade you can clearly see there is no obvious ending of the Hamon, Matt linked in a couple of examples where you can clearly see the tapering off of the Hamon. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Just to ad to the already said, in many cases they will grind the side without the Mei to get the tapering of the Nakago right again after suriage. 
Also the Nakagojiri should fit the smith in Ubu examples. 

[SteveM]

Hi Jon, let me give you the slightly academic answer, but be aware that even the great scholars of the past have left some wiggle room in the definitions of ubu, suriage, and ō-suriage, and people can get very tribal regarding how much wiggle room is acceptable. 

 

Ubu = a nakago that retains its original shape, and machi have been left unchanged. Ubu nakago can have additional peg holes or filled peg holes. The important thing is the shape. However, some accommodation is made for nakago or machi that have only been slightly adjusted for the purpose of fitting the sword into a new koshirae. (Nagayama, Kanzan). It's this "slightly adjusted" that will send people into a fit. 

 

Suriage = a blade that has been shortened by cutting off part of the nakago and moving the machi upwards, but leaving the mei (either completely or partially) intact. (Nagayama, Tokuno)

 

Ō-suriage = a blade that has been shortened by cutting down the nakago and moving the machi upwards, to the extent that nothing of the original nakago shape is retained, and mei has been completely lost. (Nagayama, Tokuno, Iimura)

 

In looking at yours, the hamon running into the nakago is an indication that the machi were moved upwards at some point. The butt end of the nakago also looks like its been cut down somewhat. There is hardly any room between the end of the mei and the end of the nakago. So it fits the definition of suriage (nakago and machi altered, but mei left intact). As you've already figured out, an additional hole in the nakago by itself doesn't really kick it out of the "ubu" box, and doesn't automatically mean its been shortened.

 

 

 

 

[Ooitame]

I agree with @SteveM, and good definitions. Congratulations on the new sword, looks healthy! As time goes you will find and learn more with this piece.