Did heirloom katanas need to meet a size standard if permitted to use during world war II?

[JAMJ]

Hi all, I'm new to this discussion forum.  My question is during WW2 if a Japanese officer wanted to carry an heirloom family katana that was longer than the specifications of the time, would they have been required to cut it down to fit gunto koshirae?  I'm curious because I have seen ancient swords fitted with WW2 koshirae.  Thanks

[mdiddy]

35 minutes ago, JAMJ said:

if a Japanese officer wanted to carry an heirloom family katana that was longer than the specifications of the time, would they have been required to cut it down to fit gunto koshirae?

 

Not necessarily. There are many examples of longer katana in gunto koshirae. For example, below is a picture of the well-known 36 inch odachi in gunto koshirae, purportedly carried by a general.

 

If/when heirloom swords were cut down to fit gunto koshirae, it may have been a function of cost rather than specifications. A longer katana would probably require more customized mounts - longer saya, longer tsuka, etc - which the officer had to pay for. Though if they were a Japanese officer descending from a samurai family and had an heirloom katana, I want to assume they probably had a little more wealth than the average Joe. Maybe not all the time, but surely more often than not.

 

Shortening a sword for gunto koshirae may also have been a function of practicality. Lugging around a 32 inch shinshinto beast through the jungle does not sound very practical.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I don't think they had a limit for being too long.  This post by Nick Komiya shows a wartime flyer that states a minimum length, but no mention of a maximum: Family Short Blades as Gunto.  I suspect the heirloom blade may also have been shortened sometime earlier in it's life.

[JAMJ]

Thank you for this information.  I have a Shinto sword that looks to have had a Showa O-suriage with some scribble scribed at the time that I cannot decipher and came with gunto koshirae. But it seems if it was done then it may have been for practical purposes.

Much appreciated

[Baba Yaga]

36 minutes ago, mdiddy said:

 

Not necessarily. There are many examples of longer katana in gunto koshirae. For example, below is a picture of the well-known 36 inch odachi in gunto koshirae, purportedly carried by a general.

 

If/when heirloom swords were cut down to fit gunto koshirae, it may have been a function of cost rather than specifications. A longer katana would probably require more customized mounts - longer saya, longer tsuka, etc - which the officer had to pay for. Though if they were a Japanese officer descending from a samurai family and had an heirloom katana, I want to assume they probably had a little more wealth than the average Joe. Maybe not all the time, but surely more often than not.

 

Shortening a sword for gunto koshirae may also have been a function of practicality. Lugging around a 32 inch shinshinto beast through the jungle does not sound very practical.

 

 

38 minutes ago, mdiddy said:

 

 

 

Shortening a sword for gunto koshirae may also have been a function of practicality. Lugging around a 32 inch shinshinto beast through the jungle does not sound very practical.

 

 

Everyone knows how to fit a sword, or should. Being in the Japanese Military with the average ht under 5.5'.  

[mdiddy]

1 hour ago, Baba Yaga said:

average

 

WW2 Seki-made showato which comprise majority of WW2 gunto are 2 shaku, 2 sun (67cm, 26 inches)

 

Standard length 'josun' for katana in Edo period was 2 shaku, 3 sun, 5 bu (71cm, 28 inches)

[JAMJ]

Then, it appears my katana in question was cut down to a gunto size (at 66.5cm).  It looks like the suriage may have removed approx 9 cm.  

If anyone can decipher the inscription I would be grateful. 

[mdiddy]

34 minutes ago, JAMJ said:

Then, it appears my katana in question was cut down to a gunto size (at 66.5cm).

 

One more idea for consideration - the sword could have been shortened for usage in a kyu gunto type koshirae and then remounted later in WW2-era shin gunto koshirae. I say that because kyu gunto tsuka seem a little shorter and more restrictive than the shin gunto tsuka. The kyu gunto tsuka had the D-guard and narrower pommel to account for. My observation is that a lot of kyu gunto with older katana either had sue-koto katate-uchi style blades that featured shorter nakago by design or katana with suriage nakago.

 

I recommend placing your translation request here. You will get a faster response if placed there.

[JAMJ]

Matt,  thank you for the additional info and the tip.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Some large Gunto collated here:

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

I can understand this could and did  happen with a minority if instance. But, the Japanese culture at the time should of frowned upon such instance. Mutilating something of such sentimental and cultural value doesn't seem logical.  

[Mark S.]

I have 2 blades in gunto mounts and they are close to what mdiddy stated… however, 2 blades are only anecdotal info.

My WW2 era made blade = 26.5” nagasa 

 

Old Kai Mihara blade placed in gunto mounts = 27.9” nagasa 

[Bruce Pennington]

46 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Mutilating something of such sentimental and cultural value doesn't seem logical.  

Yet you have to add to this the fact that the military bought many civil blades, and owners donated them, which were then re-fitted for the war by whatever shops they contracted with.  Additionally, there were over 1,000 sword shops and antique shops selling swords.  Any of them could have made such a modification and there would have been no family sentiment involved, just a profit incentive.  

 

Update:  Bingo!  From Morita-san on the Translation Forum: 

"The inscription says:
凌霜堂弘一スリ揚　(Shortened by Hirokazu/Koichi in Ryosodo(The sword shop name). "

[Baba Yaga]

29 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 Any of them could have made such a modification and there would have been no family sentiment involved, just a profit incentive.  

Update:  Bingo!  From Morita-san on the Translation Forum: 

"The inscription says:
凌霜堂弘一スリ揚　(Shortened by Hirokazu/Koichi in Ryosodo(The sword shop name). "

 

I assume that would be a fact. I'm not that well educated on war swords of that time as I am the culture. I'm sure what could happen did happen. I'm just not sure if it did happen with any regularity. 

[mdiddy]

6 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

Mutilating something of such sentimental and cultural value doesn't seem logical

 

I don't think they considered a lot of the swords in question as having a lot of cultural value. Basically, they were not putting ubu zaimei Rai Kunimitsu tachi in gunto mounts. Most of the ancestral blades in gunto mounts that I have run across have been overwhelmingly either Sue-Koto kazu-uchi mono, low to medium grade Shinto/Shinshinto, or mumei o-suriage koto that even if old are average or flawed in some way. To be clear, I'm not saying that very nice swords did not end up in gunto mounts, and that includes swords that maybe they did not think were nice at the time but now we think are very nice in art polish and have achieved Juyo token status, etc.

 

To summarize, they had a need for weapons and they viewed most of these swords as weapons first and cultural value second. The more authentically described cultural value items were left alone.

[JAMJ]

Dear Matt and others,

With this sword being o-suriage of approximately 9 cm removed it must have been quite a long sword. The atomei of the suriage smith inscribed Kanefusa.  What my limited knowledge provides it appears to have the traditional Kanefusa midare hamon along with the shallow sori indicative of late koto/early Shinto Kanefusa line. Does the blade of such original length fit that era? Regards