Tips for finding inexpensive nihonto?

[axeman1984]

Hello all!

 

I am new to nihonto collecting and have been trying to see how inexpensively I can get started. I know most collectors look for quality pieces with a great polish (or pay thousands for a polish), and one day I may be in a position to do the same. Right now however I am on a budget and looking for the best way to get my first authentic traditionally made blade. Not really looking for showato at this time.

 

I am okay with a poor polish and some rust or patina, but I would like to avoid permanently damaged blades (broken blades, super deep rust pitting, etc). Are there any tips on where I should look for these lower collectability pieces that most collectors would pass by? Are the ~$600 blades I see on ebay from Japan the only way to go? I assume the dealers on this forum only deal in much nicer pieces but do any of them have a "bargain bin" for people who know to ask?

 

Any suggestions or advice are greatly appreciated,

Justin B.

[NewB]

Hello

 

Yes, you can purchase a blade at this budget online. 

 

J.

[mdiddy]

@axeman1984 Welcome to the forum!

 

The most inexpensive and value-generating thing you can do would be to start by buying a few books. Not only will these be relatively cheap (probably < $100 for the first 3), but they will arm you with info that will help you save in the long run by avoiding costly mistakes.

That said, the books are lot more interesting and fun to digest if you have a study aide to go along with them. I recommend trying to find a sword that is in as good a polish as your budget will allow so you can get the most out of studying key features like shape, hada, and hamon. Blades in good polish do not have to be terribly expensive. If you shop around, probably you could find a wakizashi, in good polish and in shirasaya in the $500-$700 range. Below $500 and you start getting into the realm of condition issues. 

 

 

[kissakai]

Like Matt I think it best to find a wakizashi as they are better value than a katana as everyone wants a 'Samurai sword'

Also better unsigned (mumei) as it is what it is. Signed it may try to be more than it is

There was a post a year or so ago called 'I like mumei' which would be worth a read

If you can see one in hand hold it point up at arms length and does the form look right as your eyes are your guide. Shape should be flowing with no disruptions to the form

Put in a request on the NMB Wanted section

 

I've bought from 'Hintendo' on eBay in the past. No bargains but usually an honest price

This is an example

https://www.ebay.co....c:g:XmEAAOSwc21kjxcQ

I'd prefer one a little older - images are not good. He would accept an offer

Just a bought:

If other NMB members used this as an example of why they would or would not buy this wakizashi from Hintendo it would be a guide for you

 

If you see on one eBay show the images/description on the NMB and ask for advice

Good luck

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

This seller seems to have good swords for the money: https://tokyosword.myshopify.com/collections/sword?sort_by=created-descending

[Brian]

Some very good prices there. Although lots are sold out.
But.....I'm a bit wary of buying from a shop that has zero info on their address or contact info, who they are and who is the owner.
Can't even do a whois since they are through shopify.
I am sure they are ok, but would be good if they would add more about themselves.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The seller is on ebay and FB. Haven't bought anything from him before but a good friend has.

 

https://www.ebay.com/str/konnichiwatokyo

 

[kissakai]

Great link John - much better than mine

I'd be surprised if Justin can't find one here

Justin if these appeal select a couple and add the link to the NMB if you want any more guidance

 

[Tensho]

Be careful of tokyosword. A lot of his blades have hidden flaws. If something looks suspicious in the photos it usually is. 

[Mark S.]

As is always stated, “EBay can be a minefield”.  Sometimes you need to be MORE educated about nihonto to be able to successfully make purchases off that format, especially less expensive blades.  You first need to know what you want and why you want it (school and correct attributes for that school, etc.) and then REALLY know what to look for to avoid the pitfalls of not having the blade in hand.
 

You will notice some sellers always put the flaws of the blades in their pictures near the bright, shiny flash from the camera or bright spot from the lighting, or they will place flaws at the very edge of the picture.  You can see them if you look hard and know what to look for, but it can be VERY difficult.  Some do not remove the habaki so you can view the hamachi area of the blade to check for issues or get an idea if the blade is polished down, and some don’t even remove blades from shirasaya/koshirae so you can view nakago.  You can ask for more pictures, but run if you get no answer or the information you ask for still doesn’t clearly show what you are looking for. 
 

So many potential flaws don’t even show up in pictures such as bends, non-open fukure, faint hagire, etc., especially when pictures are less than optimal… or worse, designed to deceive.  The hardest part of a blade to take good pictures of (in my opinion) is the kissaki and EBay sellers rarely get it right.  This is an area of the blade that is also critical to evaluate condition of the blade correctly.  
 

Be careful and study.  We understand the eagerness to ‘want’ to rush into something.  But please listen to the advice to avoid doing that.  Wish you the best of luck in your future studies! 

[Kmad]

Just be patient and they will come along

One of these cost me 75 euro, and 175 the other, I also have a 200 euro Waki so my 3 sword collection cost 500 dollars or so 

 

I have been offered substantially more for them but I like them so not for sale.

 

It is all about the hunt for me 

Keep well and enjoy 

 

Ken 

[Baba Yaga]

11 hours ago, axeman1984 said:

Hello all!

 

I am new to nihonto collecting and have been trying to see how inexpensively I can get started.

 

It depends on what the word inexpensively means and too who. I would consider A collecting hobby like Nihonto (Art) which hasn't moved monetarily in the last 35 years very inexpensive. My Gardner charges more than a Japanese trained Polisher and only a handful are in the U.S. Monetarily appreciation are in negative numbers.

[mdiddy]

@axeman1984 If you are considering eBay, I recommend this seller: https://www.ebay.com/str/soheiantiques. Pretty sure you can get a good deal and he has very many swords not listed that could fit your need (for the record, this seller is me). Happy to help you find a good sword for a good price.

I also recommend checking out some other dealers from the messageboard here who have lots of swords and can help (link is to their page on the message board and their introduction has contact info):

 

1. Mark Jones: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/89-asian-arts-antiques-ltd/

 

2. Grey Doffin: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/120-Japanese-sword-books-tsuba/

 

3. Matt Brice: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/127-stcroixbladescom/

 

4. Ray Singer: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/121-swordsofjapancom/

[jt nesbitt]

Justin-

 Grev is Spot-On. When I first started collecting I bought from Hintendo and had a great experience. He specialized in "nice but not historically significant" type stuff. Subsequently, I tried various other vendors on Ebay and have been let down about half the time. Always had good communication and good product from Hintendo. Your next stop is Amazon to buy this-

"The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords" by Kokan Nagayama.

Also "Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords" by Markus Sesko Will really help you with deciphering the "code language" that you are going to find here on the NMB. Welcome to the Rabbit Hole. -- JT

[GeorgeLuucas]

I’m a beginner on a budget too. I’ve purchased from this seller on eBay - and peruse his inventory often. He’s on FB too. Great beginner pieces in there, and good descriptions 
 

https://www.ebay.com/str/uzunihonto

ebay is always a bit scary though. I try to stick to sellers I’m familiar with or have been recommended 

[Paz]

I personally avoid ebay. The best you can do is depends where you live and go to some shows or fairs. 

 

The best thing to do with 600 bucks is buy books. But I understand some people want a work in  hand before books. 

 

Buy books, learn. And then get something worth it. 

[axeman1984]

Thanks everyone for the great advice and links! I will take some time to look over everything and see about picking up a couple of books. It looks like unless I get as lucky as Ken M. I will probably be looking at a little larger investment for my first blade than I had initially planned.

 

For clarification my first thought was to see if there were corners of the internet where blades in the $100-$300 range existed that were complete, but perhaps covered in rust and patina (but not worth a polish). More like authentic curios than valuable collectables. From what I am seeing now it appears that if these kinds of blades exist they are rare. I suppose it is a good thing that a lot of once beloved swords aren't sitting around neglected and in rough condition.

 

For now I will keep an eye out on all of the sellers that were listed (keeping in mind the helpful words of caution) and see if anything speaks to me and happens to fit my budget while I continue to read and learn more. I am sure I will be back here with more specific questions for all of you kind folks later on.

 

Thanks,

Justin B.

[Baba Yaga]

"For clarification my first thought was to see if there were corners of the internet where blades in the $100-$300 range existed that were complete, but perhaps covered in rust and patina (but not worth a polish). "

 

If $100-$300 is your budget forget the books. This site has enough information and it's Free. 

 

http://www.japaneses...ndex.com/nihonto.htm

[Mark]

since Matt mentioned me.............. here is a sword.  $450 plus actual shipping and paypal fee... it is no treasure but i think i see some temper, it has a signed tsuba and decent fittings on the handle. a reasonable package

 

 

[axeman1984]

13 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

"For clarification my first thought was to see if there were corners of the internet where blades in the $100-$300 range existed that were complete, but perhaps covered in rust and patina (but not worth a polish). "

 

If $100-$300 is your budget forget the books. This site has enough information and it's Free. 

 

http://www.japaneses...ndex.com/nihonto.htm

Thanks Patricius! I have spent a while reading through that site, great resource!

[axeman1984]

10 hours ago, Mark said:

since Matt mentioned me.............. here is a sword.  $450 plus actual shipping and paypal fee... it is no treasure but i think i see some temper, it has a signed tsuba and decent fittings on the handle. a reasonable package

Thanks for posting an example Mark! It seems like maybe a lot of dealers don't post their less desirable pieces. I presume this is to keep the perception of their overall collection positive?

 

I love that this wakizashi includes koshirae for the price. I hope it isn't considered rude for me to try an attempt at analyzing the blade so I can perhaps get corrections from you or the group.
From the pictures it seems like the blade has been polished pretty heavily causing a change in shape past the habiki. I have never seen a nakago jiri where the mune side is the longer angle, is that a specific style? The hamon is hard to make out due to the polish of course, but am I seeing an ito suguha hamon or is there not enough visible to tell? Finally, is there no yokote, and if so would that make this a shobu zukuri kissaki?
Is there anything about this blade that would indicate the period it was made?

[Alex A]

If you want cheap, go to an arms fair

 

Always something

[Baba Yaga]

It appears we have entered the Twilight Zone. The Mantra which governed this highly academic and once reverend collection of Art (Study the best and you will learn the best) has taken a turn. I wish I could say, I can't believe what I'm reading, but I can. 

[Alex A]

The reality is there are many folks not interested in educating themselves and are happy to pick up anything cheap they can get their hands on.

 

Nothing wrong with that, horses for courses.

 

Perhaps  they would prefer folks not preaching as to what they should like or collect. Probably comes across as elitism to them.

 

To be honest, im also happy to look at anything authentic 

[axeman1984]

On 7/5/2023 at 10:27 AM, Baba Yaga said:

It appears we have entered the Twilight Zone. The Mantra which governed this highly academic and once reverend collection of Art (Study the best and you will learn the best) has taken a turn. I wish I could say, I can't believe what I'm reading, but I can. 

Apologies if I offended you.

[b.hennick]

About 40 years ago a dealer bought a Japanese sword collection. I bought 7 swords and my friend bought one. We paid almost the same price. I studied all 7 and learned from them. I ended keeping only one of the 7. I bought the one my friend bought several years later. There are many roads to take. 

[Bazza]

Having read this thread I'm reminded that a member once suggested a "beginners' place" where one could read the ins and outs of the oft-repeated questions such as those posted here.  I was immediately reminded of this thread:

wherein I wrote:   Well, there it is above!!  Board software 1,  BaZZa 0...  Markus Sesko's website is well worth a thorough trawl by anyone contemplating a lifelong run down rabbit holes!!  Knowledge is power even if it takes you decades to approach, yet never master...

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

15 hours ago, axeman1984 said:

Apologies if I offended you.

You didn't offend me at all. It's more about in resent threads the goal post moving the wrong way. This one just got added up in the collateral damage.