My first two katana arrived from the auction today - how well have I done, and can you tell me more about them (they are both Mumei)?

[George KN]

So I bought these two katana in a UK auction, and they've finally arrived!

 

 

Sure, the auction provided some details. but both swords are mumei and have no papers, and I've learnt to not trust auctions, so I would very much like your opinions on them. 

 

 

I was really surprised by how different the two blades are - one has a blade length of 66cm, and the other of 60cm, but the difference in weight surprised me. Also, although I'm mostly asking about the blades here (I'll ask about the other parts in another thread), the quality of the tsuka between the two is night and day.

 

Firstly, can anyone confirm these are indeed genuine antique, handmade Japanese katanas?

 

Secondly, any additional information on them would be great! Age, swordsmith, style, etc - all the good stuff! At least without having any signatures I don't need to worry about them being gimei 

 

Thirdly, I paid £900 each (including auction fees and delivery), so £1,800 total for these. I've never even held one before, and you don't see them for sale in the UK very often, so is this a lot? My gut feeling after actually holding them is that I may have got a good deal with the long katana, but overpaid for the smaller one?  

 

I'll also add more pictures for your perusal,

George

[George KN]

Large katana pictures (sorry about the socks):

 

[George KN]

Small Katana (this was an impulse buy, probably shouldn't have gone for it):

 

[ROKUJURO]

George,

both look like authentic KATANA (not katanas; Japanese nouns don't have a plural form) to me. Please check the exact length of the shorter blade as everything shorter then 606 mm (and longer than 303 mm) is a WAKIZASHI. Generally, these have a lower market value compared with KATANA.

With these photos, I cannot judge the quality of the blades, but they seem substantially o.k. The polishes seem to be so so - perhaps altered by long-time use of UCHIKO? 

[George KN]

Hi @ROKUJURO,

 

Ahh, my bad - it is Katana, you're right, I'm not sure how that slipped into my post.

 

Please forgive my ignorance, but how exactly should you measure the blade when it curves? Should the hilt be counted when deciding its length? And what is Uchiko?

[Brian]

Straight line down the back from the tip to the notch at the habaki. Over 60.6cm is katana. Under is wakizashi.
They look like a decent deal, fair polish and you can still see the hamon. Wipe with oil, and don't use anything abrasive to clean them.

[Geraint]

Dear George.

 

I like the koshirae for sword number one.  Nagasa, length, is measured from the tip/kissaki to the notch on the back, the mune machi.  24" plus is a katana, less is a wakizashi or you might chose to call it an o wakizashi which simply means big.  The length is measured in a straight line regardless of curve but the curve is measured separately from the straight line kissaki to mune machi to the mune.  This is useful as it indicates the degree of curvature.

 

Uchiko is a very fine powder contained in a wad of fabric and encased in silk mounted on a short handle.  It used to be recommended for removing old oil and cleaning the blade.  Most people nowadays prefer not to use it as it is mildly abrasive.

 

{Brian beat me to it!}

 

All the best.

[Jon]

I like the koshirae on the longer blade, it seams to have a reasonable polish. Not bad for £900….looking at what has gone through the UK auctions is year ( I’ve been checking them all out) not an inappropriate price and better than some I have seen go through.

 

Jon

[Jon]

35 minutes ago, Geraint said:

Uchiko is a very fine powder contained in a wad of fabric and encased in silk mounted on a short handle.  It used to be recommended for removing old oil and cleaning the blade.  Most people nowadays prefer not to use it as it is mildly abrasive.

I have been wondering about this….when I had an out of Polish blade I used Uchiko to clean of the old oil as part of 3 monthly maintenance…But now my blade is being polished I was in two minds about using it…as advice seems to be mixed.

[ChrisW]

Simply put, there are two valid schools of thought on uchiko:

 

1. Don't use it at all, leave it to the professionals.

 

2. Careful and measured use of it, only on out-of-polish blades where the application may clean off grime and help arrest corrosion.

[George KN]

Thanks @ROKUJURO, @Brian, and @Geraint for your replies,

 

I double checked the measurement, and I think it unfortunately is just under 60cm. Its mildly annoying though as the auction did advertise it as a katana, and even said they had someone come in to look at the collection. 

 

 

Was the 60.6cm Katana/Wakizashi limit always the same throughout all the periods? Or did it change with time or by region?

Here is how it was described - any other glaring errors?:
 

A Katana possibly Mino in Koshirae.

Sugata: Shinogi-Zukuri Iori-mune with shallow tori-zori

Nagasa: 60cm

Motohaba: 2.8cm Sakihaba: 2cm Kasane: 7mm

Hada: difficult to determine in current polish but appears itame

Hamon: Mino style gunome midare with some togari-ba. Broad nioi-guchi with very bright patches of nie. Some sunagashi near the hamachi

Kissaki: Chu kissaki with small kaeri and hakikake

Nakago:  Ubu, one mekugi ana, kurijiri katte-sagari Yasurimei

Koshirae: blue tape bound same tsuka (damaged). Good quality round iron tsuba pierced thin plate with sakura mon and signed Tadatsugu . Black lacquered saya (damaged with lacquer loss.)

Provenance: purchased in a local UK auction in 1952

Also @Jon, I read in a different thread you had decided to buy a papered and polished sword, congrats! (Probably far less of a gamble than accidentally ending up with a Wakizashi )

[Jon]

7 minutes ago, Ghoul414 said:

double checked the measurement, and I think it unfortunately is just under 60cm.

Well if you look on the bright side you’ve just purchased a daisho.

[ROKUJURO]

Jon,
no, it is certainly not a DAISHO. We just had a thread which dealt with the designation: 

When they described the blade to measure 60 cm they made a mistake calling it a KATANA. This will cost you money should you decide to sell it on. They should have known that. Perhaps a reason to give it back and get refunded? 

The definition above of what length is what kind of sword is the actual rule, and the market and the SHINSA panels work that way. In former times, it was probably less exact, and there were designations like O-TANTO, SUNNOBI TANTO, KO-WAKIZASHI and O-WAKIZASHI, UCHIGATANA, KATATE-UCHI and so on, depending on period and fashion. 

[Jon]

 

18 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

no, it is certainly not a DAISHO. We just had a thread which dealt with the designation: 

Hi Jean, I was being a bit flippant and using the word DAISHO as related to pre 16century usage when it was any long and short blade combination…

[George KN]

Haha, thanks @Jon, it did make me chuckle.

 

@ROKUJURO, interesting thread, but sadly I doubt the auction would ever give a refund - they very much work on the idea that information is advisory and not a guarantee.

 

It does feel weird that it is almost exactly on the boundary between Katana/Wakizashi though. Again, probably just my ignorance, but could it be a Kodachi (https://www.martiala...whats-the-difference)? I've read some articles saying they were exactly 60cm long... Alternatively, any estimates on the age of both of them?

Edit: I've also heard the term Ko-Katana thrown around a bit when researching large Wakizashi- what's the difference between a Ko-Katana and an O-Wakizashi?

 

Edit 2: Just found this great article, which has given me a lot to think about: https://markussesko....08/11/the-wakizashi/

[Jon]

Hi George, interestedly  the auction houses are still bound by consumer protection act (distance selling regulations)  2000. They may put in their terms and conditions about only advisory ra ra ra..but in law if it’s distance selling and is not as expected you can ask for a refund.

 

I did get an auction TANTO that was described as a Shinto blade, when I got it the tang had been blackened and it was a Chinese knock off. I emailed said it was not as described and asked for a refund under the consumer protection act (distance selling regulations) 2000.

 

If that does not work, if you made your purchase by credit card and it was purchased at a distance and is not as described, you can ask for a refund from the credit card…they will make a claim against the auction house.

[paulb]

Gentlemen,

For the sake of transparency I should confirm that I was involved with this auctions and helped describe the swords. 

 

Regarding length I would like to confirm the following:

1.  The official minimum length for a kata using traditional measurement is 2 shaku which converts to 60.6cm.  However over the years this has been simplified and in most modern texts and most modern sellers have rounded this to 60cm

2. More importantly in 1658 the maximum legal length for a wakizashi was specified as 51.5cm (shaku equivalent). This was later increased but was still well below 60cm.

This sword as a nagasa of 60cm (or very marginally under).  If as I believe it was made in the Edo period it would have been illegal to be carried s a wakizashi. It is also mounted as a long sword.

At the turn of the century George Cameron Stone in his definitive work "A glossary of arms and Armour" lists perhaps half a dozen different terms for swords of different length including chisa-katana and uchi-katana which have blades longer than the Tokugawa maximum legal limit but below 60cm. Taking these definitions as a reference your sword might be more accurately described as a chisa-katana but the term has largely fallen out of use.

George if it would be of any help I would be happy to discuss your sword with you regarding possible age and origin

Regards

Paul

 

 

 

[Geraint]

Dear George.

 

You should definitely take up Paul's offer.  And in one sense the sword is already doing you a favour in that it has provoked you to do some serious study around it which will stand you in good stead going forward.  

 

Enjoy them both.

 

All the best.

[Bazza]

Well, on the note of serious study, goose-making time coming up for me!!  Brickbats welcome, bouquets more so.  I may be wrong in 'precise' details and stand correction, but the message intent should be clear.

 

A note on precision in measurement.  A length specified as 60cm in metrology (the scientific study of measurement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrology) is understood to have a precision of 1cm, i.e., 59.5cm to 60.5cm.  In other words, the 'uncertainty interval' is +/-0.5cm. 

 

Similarly, a measurement written as 60.6cm is understood to have a precision of 0.1cm, i.e., 60.55cm to 60.65cm.  In other words, the uncertainty interval is +/-0.05cm.

 

So, if one is relying on a description of a katana length as 60cm one had darned well better go and carefully measure it himself, or ask for a measurement to be made to the nearest 0.1cm (or 0.10cm to be more precise!!)

 

Let the conversation continue...

 

BaZZa.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I too would describe it as a katana , based on the mounting.

Ian Brooks

[George KN]

Thanks guys for the comments, and @paulb, I wasn't expecting to meet someone that had seen the blades in person on here, let alone the very person that evaluated them, so that's a pleasant surprise! I'd very much like to take you up on your offer and learn more about either blade and the wider world of nihontō collecting - I'm still very much trying to find my feet here.

 

I should also add I continue to be delighted by the longer katana, it really is beautiful to handle and observe - the amount of craftsmanship in the blade and koshirae is on a completely different scale to anything else I have the honour to possess (which considering most of my other possessions are either computer related, or a few antique firearms, it really isn't much of a contest). I can also very much appreciate the chisa-katana / o-wakizashi, although it is in what feels like poorer fittings:

 

 

 

With regards to the chisa-katana / o-wakizashi debate though, as I understand it then, there are few potential options (very much speculation, but partly based on what Paul said and what I have read here: https://markussesko....08/11/the-wakizashi/)

 

1. It is a relatively new blade, after the laws on wakizashi sizes stopped mattering (this seems unlikely considering it was previously purchased in an auction in the 1950s, and Paul has already stated it is likely older).

 

2. It was made during the time of the sword-laws, but was used as a primary weapon by a short Samurai and therefore would be considered a chisa-katana (this would explain the katana fittings).

 

3. It was made during the time of the sword-laws, but was made for a civilian with special permission or an outlaw without as a primary weapon (the linked article spoke more about this, and it would also explain the katana fittings and perhaps why they were poorer quality?).

4. It was made during the time of the sword-laws, but made as a secondary weapon for a Samurai that had special permission and wanted a particularly long secondary weapon, an o-wakizashi (although if this is the case, and the sword is literally 60cm long, they are basically carrying around two katana, so I'm not sure what the benefit is since it can't be used in a smaller spaces like a wakizashi is apparently for?).

5. It was made before the sword-laws in 1658, when the sizes for wakizashi and katana weren't fixed, so could be any number of other options (but this seems less likely based on Paul's estimated age of the blade).

Have I got those right? And do we think the koshirae is actually original to the sword?

[paulb]

Hi George,

I have sent you a pm with some contact details. please feel free to get in touch

[Paz]

So from observation yes these are genuine. Polish is needed slightly but not a major problem. 

 

I can see ubu nakago without a signature, unless the sword was a muromachi mass produced blade from mino. 

 

But for 900 quid not bad. Koshiare aswell. 

 

Regards 

Paz

[George KN]

Hi all, had a really good chat over the phone with Paul today (thanks again for that!), and I'm feeling a lot more confident about both swords, and collecting nihonto in general! Honestly its just a little daunting finding out just how much you *don't* know about a topic, but I already know a lot more than I did yesterday, and I'm very much looking forward to learning yet more again in the future.

 

For those following on about the Wakizashi size debate, I also found an old thread that had some related comments to sword sizes, so it looks like I'm far from the first to be in this situation: 

 
Also thanks @Paz - as a novice it really is quite hard to know how to price these things (I've looked at many examples, but it's still difficult for me to know the difference between a £1,000 and £5,000 sword, and even £900 is a lot of money for me to spend on something), so its comforting to hear people say it was a decent deal.

[Paz]

@Ghoul414

 

Np 

 

I think this is where books are in handy. This is one of the only hobbies I know where books are a literal must have. 

 

I was at the Birmingham arms fair recently and nearly everyone who was selling Nihonto had some book reference be it sesko or other. 

 

This is where you really get to know what sword you really have and how much it is worth. Any sword I'm interested in requires me to go straight to Internet or books. 

 

The book I recommend highly is nagayama kokan conissour of the Japanese sword. If you can find it it's worth the hundred bucks. Otherwise amazon could be a good starting point with some decent stuff. 

 

What you will soon realize is that sword with papers NBTHK Hozon ect would fetch higher prices because they have been attributed and authenticated. 

 

Hope that helps. 

 

Kind regards 

Paz

[Jon]

On 7/1/2023 at 7:28 AM, Paz said:

some book reference be it sesko or other

cheers for that entry, guided me to have a look on getting Seskos book, Amazon have a deal…hardback for £46.00 including delivery soft back is only £35…more books to read.