Help with papers as I think about investing in a papered blade.

[Jon]

I’m thinking about investing in a papered blade in full Polish. Now I’m looking at three blades. They are all in perfect Polish and are papered, the first is attributed to Morokage Bizen, Papers are Tokinoh  kanteisho blade is early Muromachi. But I’m struggling a bit with the papers it has as I cannot find a reference on line for how meaningful  these papers are so help would be appreciated on the level of value of a sword with these papers ( the blade itself is very lovely)

 

Description 
Attributed to Morokage, Bizen, papers Tokinoh Kanteisho. Heisei 13 period 15th century Koto early Muromachi era, length 62.8cm, Sugar Hon zukuri, Lori mine, Kitae, Ko – itame had, Hamon Ko – gnome, Ko – midare, Boshi Chu – Kissaki

[Jon]

The next sword and papers is a bit easier and I sort of am happy with it as it’s an NBTHK Hozon paper…it would be good to understand thoughts on the value of a blade with these papers ( again it’s in full polish and lovely).

 

The blade is :Date: 1684-1704   School: Tsukushi Nobukuni  Period:Jokyō (1684-1688)  Genroku (1688-1704) Province: Chikuzen

 

Smith is: Yoshimasa (3rd gen) Chikuzen ju Minamoto Nobukuni Heishiro Yoshimasa References: Hawley YOS363, rated 40 points.  Toko Taikan page 747, rated ¥3M.

 

[Jon]

The last one is a sword and papers easier and I sort of am happy with it as it’s an NBTHK Hozon paper…it would be good to understand thoughts on the value of a blade with these papers ( again it’s in full polish and lovely).

 

The blade is : Wakizashi by Taira Takada Edo Period

my budget only runs to one of these so it needs to be the right one at the right price.

[Katsujinken]

First, the age old adage: “buy the blade not the papers.”

 

You would be better served posting more photos of the blades and the prices, if you are willing. 
 

At a glance the smiths are comparable generally in terms of relative prestige. 
 

The Morokage smiths in Fujishiro are ranked chusaku or chujosaku, nothing special so to speak. This is the oldest blade, but it is quite short for a katana. 
 

Yoshimasa is ranked chusaku by Fujishiro. This blade is younger but is a nice length, and it’s signed, which is a plus for a Shinto blade. 
 

Taira Takada is a broad school level attribution by the NBTHK, and a mumei wakizashi is generally going to be of lower value.
 

NBTHK papers are always better than other papers in my opinion. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am at the airport so this will be bit short reply with not very long explanations.

 

Unfortunately in my view the papers for Morokage carry 0 market value. Collectors (I know I do) might value them a bit but for market I would treat as the same as without any papers.

 

Taira Takada as mumei attribution puts the sword in my eyes towards late Muromachi. However there are quite many signed pieces from Taira Takada available and I would rather work towards a signed one.

 

These being roughly equal in price? I would then go for Yoshimasa with this amount of information.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Just realized I had some of my files on my phone.

 

For signed Morokage tachi asking prices I have seen online have been 2 - 4M yen (4 tachi). For mumei katana c.1,5M (to me that seems quite high but I only have 2 references and 1 with koshirae), and for mumei wakizashi 400k to 700k. These all have Tokubetsu Hozon, however the 2 mumei wakizashi only have Hozon.

[Katsujinken]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

These being roughly equal in price? I would then go for Yoshimasa with this amount of information.

Agreed. 

[mywei]

Hi Jon,

 

It would also help to clarify what you are wanting out of these blades. I think if it is for a financial investment you may be hard pressed to recoup your investment on resale let along make a profit imho. But if for learning purposes etc then to each their own! It may be worth waiting however, and going for a better sword later!

 

Not having photos of the blades but just going at face value:

Blade 1. Late Omiya school, may be an interesting blade but Tokuno papers are a liability in the market. Also not ubu

 

Blade 2. shinto from a mid ranking smith - but less desirable in the market generally as there will be a lot of shortened/not ubu Shinto blades around 

 

Blade 3. Mumei wakizashi attributed to Takada school - I suspect may be overpriced if asking similar prices as the other blades. The fact that it is, unsigned, not ubu, a wakizashi and Bungo Takada will all make it hard to resell. 

[NewB]

I'd pick the ubu blade. Prices also Are decisive factors.. there are a lot of folks here that have same or better blades for very competitive prices 

 

J.

[Jon]

Cheers all

 

Price wise:

the Morokage blade is $3600 dollars ( £2900)

the Yoshimasa blade is $3150 dollars (£2500)

and the takada is $2400 dollars 

 

These seem reasonable as all the blades are in a good polish, what do others think ?

[Franco D]

6 hours ago, Jon said:

I’m thinking about investing in a papered blade in full Polish.

 

Suggestions;

Follow carefully the NBTHK's guidelines for Tokubetsu Hozon level swords (homework). Additionally, look for Fujishiro rated smiths and familiarize yourself with the smith's work (homework). Is the sword that smith's A, B, or C level work (homework)? Occasionally, it is possible to find a Hozon papered sword that is Tokubetsu Hozon quality/level (or perhaps even better) by a rated smith. This is where experience comes in. 

The second half of the equation when shopping is judging the polish. This requires looking at and studying as many swords, preferably in excellent polish, as possible with an experienced mentor to help. 

Attend sword shows and club events.

Dealers and collectors can be a good source for finding a good sword. Take your time, shop.

http://nihontocraft....hinsa_Standards.html

 

Other:

Return policy, approval period? 

Kantei books; Yamanaka's Newsletters revised, Nihonto Koza, ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards,

[Jon]

Pictures of the takada wakizashi 

[Jon]

The Morokage blade pictures 

[Jon]

Pictures of the Yoshimasa blade

[Baba Yaga]

The Morokage Bizen sword looks decent "for the price" with the limited photos. The exception of several inches missing.  I can't believe collectors make assumptions based on photos not being supplied.  There is always a given take 

[Jon]

In the end I went for the Yoshimasa blade, got it for £2000, which I think is pretty good for a papered blade in good Polish….I was looking at what was coming out of the auctions at present and people were paying £1000. + 25% fees for damaged blades out of Polish…and what I really want is a reasonable blade I can fully study and understand.