Koto (Soshu den?) or newer creation?

[JAMJ]

While the translation might be literal maybe that's not the correct term for today's context. I understand the intent and that kazuuchi-mono may have been forged quickly and initially not provided a great polish, but they would not have been stamped from a press as is the current definition of mass-produced.  There was some skill involved and saying "mass-produced" does cast a dark light on the entire spectrum of builds. 

 

I get the picture. Thanks 

[rematron]

Yeah, I’m only trying to clear up the confusion on who said what. The implications of something being mass produced is a whole other conversation. “Mass produced” doesn’t equate to “bad”.  It just means something for the masses and not special order. 

[JAMJ]

Understood.  Probably a conversation with no end.

I personally imbue little added value to a sword specifically made for a client as it was made to the specifications of that client; unless of course if they were a historically relevant figure.   A sword used in a historically relevant battle to me is more important than a sword made by some schmuck who wanted to prance around with it. 😂

To each their own...

[Gakusee]

18 hours ago, JAMJ said:

Understood.  Probably a conversation with no end.

I personally imbue little added value to a sword specifically made for a client as it was made to the specifications of that client; unless of course if they were a historically relevant figure.   A sword used in a historically relevant battle to me is more important than a sword made by some schmuck who wanted to prance around with it. 😂

To each their own...

 

Jeff - please spend a bit more time reading to familiarise yourself with the context, the meanings, the methods used by smiths and so on. Please firstly understand the quality implications of custom-ordered swords with particular emphasis on what that meant in terms of quality and performance characteristics, before you make sweeping statements about what it might hypothetically mean merely semantically. 

[JAMJ]

Michael, apologies if I came across as being dismissive of quality. I really was speaking to value of the object in the ethereal sense, exclusive of quality.  Why a sword might be more or less valuable to an individual.  I wasn't monetizing the value of a sword in that regard and am truly in awe of the skill in creating swords of high quality.  Like all art, appreciation of nihonto is subjective.

[Baba Yaga]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:34 PM, rematron said:

Yeah, I’m only trying to clear up the confusion on who said what. The implications of something being mass produced is a whole other conversation. “Mass produced” doesn’t equate to “bad”.  It just means something for the masses and not special order. 

 

You are absolutely correct. It's also a falsey to state the mass produced prosess can't produce special order items. 

[Paz]

I find it illogical that mass produced blades were meant for only one battle. And this seems to be an error on whoever wrote that. 

These were made for battle, and made to last. These do not mean they lacked quality or any appreciation values. There is no evidence of this in any of the leading books on nihonto. 

These swords as most of us know have lasted well into our modern times and still can fetch high value depending on the school, quality ect. 

Even mass produced Chinese katana in recent years have made swords which are of good quality in the same production line with swords of  inconsistencies and faults.

 

I will always judge the blade by its individual merit than grouping it together as "oh mass produced during the sengoku jiadai". 

 

I have seen many quality works from this era mass produced era. Ie bizen osafune. 

 

Kind regards 

Paz 

[Matsunoki]

Bit of a shame that this topic turned into a debate about Kazuuchimono especially as we are looking at a Tanto rather than a long sword.

To me this looks like an interesting blade and worthy of a bit more attention. True, the horimono are heavily degraded by repeated polishing and this often leaves them partially obliterated or with a distorted appearance (the clean sharp lines of the original surface have disappeared leaving just the deeper portions of the carving which themselves can be further distorted if rust is removed from their interior).

I can see a strong sugata, a nie laden midare hamon,a quite long  hadaware further suggests age…….but I’m no kantei participant! Ubu? Just one mekugi ana…..old Japanese polish? Some sunagashi?

I”d really like some of you guys to look again and tell me why this is viewed as low quality (as opposed to old and tired)

Not trying to be combative!…..just that I’m a bit confused.

Thanks. All the best. Colin

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

I look at the pictures over and over again and I think the Horimono are more likely bad then polished out so much. 
The next problem I think I see is the polish or the pictures. 

What makes the blade bad quality is the very weak hamon in the middle of the blade that is visible. 

But I’m not even sure how much of the Hamon is actually real the blade looks for my like it was worked on to trick someone with Acid and all together but could be the pictures. 
I would say it is suriage but I’m also not sure with the pictures. 

Also I don’t see any measurements of the blade. 
How thick and long is it ? Maybe a picture that shows how much thicker the Nakago then the blade is would be nice. 
 

 

[Matsunoki]

52 minutes ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

How thick and long is it ? Maybe a picture that shows how much thicker the Nakago then the blade is would be nice. 

I agree……measurements would be very helpful especially the nakago thickness vs the thickness just above the habaki area. 

[JAMJ]

Thanks for bringing this back to the blade in question.  I will add more pics and the measurements.  My impression is that the nakago is ubu, and it does really look like later Horikawa school to me.  But for you to judge.  Will upload soon.  Thanks 

[JAMJ]

Hi, the tanto dimensions are,

Width:

  At end of habaki 23.7 mm

  At top of nakago 20.9 mm

 

Thickness:

  At end of habaki 4.5 mm

  At top of nakago 4.9 mm

 

Nagasa 20.9 cm

Nakago 7.8 cm

Hamon ends at top of end of nakago

 

On closer look, it doesn't look like the top end (ken) of the horimono has the same width and precision as the lower lines.  Is it possible someone could have added that later?  The depth is much shallower there. 

 

Let me know if the attached closer pics help.

Thanks

[Jacques]

OMG 

[Matsunoki]

5 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

OMG

OK, I’ll “bite”. 
Jacques, from these poor images please tell us what you see.

[George KN]

He hasn't done what I think he's done right? Right?!

 

[Jacques]

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

OK, I’ll “bite”. 
Jacques, from these poor images please tell us what you see.

 

I don't really want to throw myself into this quagmire.. I'll leave it to the "experts". 

 

Brian, How do you know Markus is right ?  

[JAMJ]

Ok, let me in on it please?  Have I provided the info you need?

[Matsunoki]

Jeff, firstly I am definitely not one of the “experts” that Jacques sarcastically refers to and secondly, as often happens when working from images, you will probably get 5 different opinions from 5 different people. Sometimes swords look very different “in hand” and images can mislead considerably. For that reason many will not venture an opinion….and that is an understandable pity
Your best bet is to find a local group or individual that can help you face to face.…..

but maybe someone feels like “having a go”!?

Good luck and all,the best.

 

[JAMJ]

Any thoughts on what might be "wrong" would be appreciated.  

If something has been manipulated can it be fixed?

[Jacques]

1 hour ago, JAMJ said:

Ok, let me in on it please?  Have I provided the info you need?

 

Sorry, when I said quagmire I wasn't referring to your tanto but to the way this topic has turned out. 
About your tanto I can't say much based on photos (you can only really study a blade by having it in hand). By the way, does it have a sori and if so, how much?

[Scogg]

3 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

He hasn't done what I think he's done right? Right?!

 

If you're referring to the appearance of the Nakago - between the first photos and the last photo..

I don't believe it has been cleaned. I think its just the lighting. The first photos had less brilliant light than the last couple photos, making it look a bit different

Best of luck Jeff, it's a cool little Tanto!
I hope you find the answers you're looking for,
Cheers,

-Sam

[JAMJ]

Oh, nakago has not been cleaned. It was simply angled to see the end of the hamon.  It is still dark rust.

[Jon]

1 hour ago, JAMJ said:

Oh, nakago has not been cleaned. It was simply angled to see the end of the hamon.  It is still dark rust.

It always amazes me how different things can look between one picture and the next…a slight variation in light or angle….those pictures you have taken of the NAKAGO are a classic case, one set show the nice black magnetite the other looks like it’s all been cleaned off…..

 

Jon

[Baba Yaga]

I can take a Koto Blade outside when the sun is shining at my back and move it in small degrees. In NO WAY am I going to observe anything close with photos. 

 

 

[JAMJ]

@Jacques D. sori is 3 mm.

[Jacques]

Muromachi era maybe later i can't say more.

[JAMJ]

Thanks Jacques.  Late muromachi/early Edo is the right time frame for the school I am leaning toward.