Ebay mantetsu - did I mess up?

[RobCarter3]

So I've been into nihonto for a couple of years now and steadily shifting interest to military swords over the past few months.  I've read through Fuller & Gregory and Plimpton (aware that both contain various outdated information) and been lurking on this board and warrelics.eu.  It seems I decided to take my first plunge into military swords by wandering straight into the lion's den. 

 

I just won this auction on eBay for a pretty low price from a seller that people are advised to exercise caution with.  The price really makes me question if either the collector market is still quite depressed or if I bought a bad sword. 

 

Koa Isshin mei with autumn 1942 date.  To my eyes, mei compares well to published references.  Nakago and yasurime are well finished.  Patina looks fine.  No polisher "barcode."  Type 98 mounts look good. 

 

Do I have a good read on the sword or am I the fool easily parted from his money?

 

eBay pictures attached.  More to follow when I have the sword in hand. 

 

 

[RobCarter3]

[John C]

Blurry pics but looks legit to my eye. There will be a serial number on the mune made up of a katakana letter and some numbers. That will legitimize the blade a little further if they match since there is a pattern to them.

John C.

[Brian]

Don't see anything wrong with it, seems a perfectly legit Koa Isshin.
Personaly, I don't see the reason for high demand for them. They aren't Gendaito. But the fact remains that they are sought after and command a premium. So looks like you scored ok. Nice one.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The chief issue with this seller is the terrible polish he applies to nearly all the swords, this is unfortunately no exception. Otherwise this looks authentic.

[Bruce Pennington]

Rob,

I'm not usually the skeptic, and admittedly, the photos are pretty blurry.  But be sure to post good photos of both sides and the back edge of the nakago when it arrives.  Not happy with a couple of kanji, but then again, it could just be the poor quality photos.

[RobCarter3]

Thank you all for your assessments!  I'll take pictures and post once it arrives.

[BANGBANGSAN]

It looks legit to me, what is the Ser#?

[RobCarter3]

Ser# not pictured.  Tracking says it arrives on Monday so we'll find out then. 

[Stephen]

Hoping today 

[RobCarter3]

Sword is here!  I made my best attempt at sword photography, with the last two pictures being in outdoor natural light to better show how the polish appears to the naked eye (the camera is still picking up more than the eye, though). 

 

There is a stamp on the spine of the nakago below the serial number.  The "w" stamp is also present (I'm reading through the thread on this right now).  The fuchi and one of the seppa are marked "22."  I did not find any other numbers on the various fittings.  The blade was covered in some kind of heavy grease that smelled like cosmoline or something else petroleum-based.  It's also caked all over the tsuba.

 

I can retake photos or take additional photos -- just let me know! 

 

MUCH larger resolution pictures available here: https://drive.google...QpH-7pLR?usp=sharing

 

 

 

[RobCarter3]

[RobCarter3]

[RobCarter3]

[Stephen]

Well you sure didn't mess up, be  proud to own a man tattoo like that.  Yes that's what voice recognition does I've kind of nickname them all man tattoos LOL.

Bruce will come along and give you all the skinny on the numbers I don't know the mark above the 677.

Lots of info on the w on board as well I save all that for Bruce is better command of it than I do..

 

 

Good pickup!!

[Kiipu]

Hi Robert, your sword was sold earlier this year on eBay for US$1475.

SCARCE Japanese WW2 SOUTH MANCHURIAN RAILWAY KATANA SWORD

[RobCarter3]

36 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

Hi Robert, your sword was sold earlier this year on eBay for US$1475.

SCARCE Japanese WW2 SOUTH MANCHURIAN RAILWAY KATANA SWORD

 

Great catch!  It looks like Showa22 added a habaki, seppas, and mekugi and unfortunately "cleaned" the blade.  I'm sure he thought he could make an easy flip.  It looks like he ended up losing about $200 after eBay's cut. 

[John C]

The YA 677 serial number matches the year (1942). I think you did well.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Yes that's what voice recognition does I've kind of nickname them all man tattoos LOL.

HA!  Love it  Stephen!

And LOOK what we have here!  A "Nan" stamp on the mune of a '42 Koa Isshin!!!  Doesn't that toss a monkey-wrench twist into the SMR Mantetsu story!

 

 

The "YA" line was the last pure '42 line, with the MA line overlapping '42 & '43.  Yet, we don't see any Nan stamped blades showing up until 3 lines later with the '43 FU line, but not on Koa Isshin.  The year was mixed with both Koa and non-Koa blades, with the Nan on the non-Koa blades.  

 

This is something to contemplate.  Any thoughts @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN?

 

PS: Rob, There are a few good sources for catching up on your Mantetsu gunto, but our article on them summarizes them all:

SMR - The Mantetsu Blade

[Tensho]

2 hours ago, RobCarter3 said:

 

Great catch!  It looks like Showa22 added a habaki, seppas, and mekugi and unfortunately "cleaned" the blade.  I'm sure he thought he could make an easy flip.  It looks like he ended up losing about $200 after eBay's cut. 

Looks like the only thing he left original is the tsuka, blade and saya. The chuso, seppa, habaki(poorly fit)and even tsuba are added. 

 

His shill bidders must have forgot to bid on it for him. 

[Bruce Pennington]

I knew I'd seem a mysterious stamp on a Mantetsu mune before - Autumn 1942 YA 702 Koa Isshin has the Nan stamp too!  Have to run, but will post photos or link when I can.

 

Update:  It's a gunto owned by Edokko on Gunboards.  The Nan is poorly struck with only the horizontal lines showing, the outer edges missing.  It also bears the W/M stamp:

 

[RobCarter3]

22 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

And LOOK what we have here!  A "Nan" stamp on the mune of a '42 Koa Isshin!!!  Doesn't that toss a monkey-wrench twist into the SMR Mantetsu story!

 

22 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The "YA" line was the last pure '42 line, with the MA line overlapping '42 & '43.  Yet, we don't see any Nan stamped blades showing up until 3 lines later with the '43 FU line, but not on Koa Isshin.  The year was mixed with both Koa and non-Koa blades, with the Nan on the non-Koa blades. 

 

19 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I knew I'd seem a mysterious stamp on a Mantetsu mune before - Autumn 1942 YA 702 Koa Isshin has the Nan stamp too!  [...] Update:  It's a gunto owned by Edokko on Gunboards.  The Nan is poorly struck with only the horizontal lines showing, the outer edges missing.  It also bears the W/M stamp

 

This is what sucked me into the military sword space.  So much still unknown and actively being uncovered this board and similar ones. 

 

Bruce, I've read your mantetsu article, your stamps article, and Ohmura-san's mantetsu pages.  Also scanned through the prior threads on "w" or "m" and on the "nan" stamp.  So, if I'm following all of this correctly, commercial officer sword production comes under army supervision in 1942.  There are competing theories of whether blades are being made at SMR and being "nan" stamped by Nan-man arsenal inspectors now overseeing things at SMR, or if mantetsu blades are actually being made or finished at Nan-man.  Then there's the "w" stamp in the mix, now thought to be a "halfway" inspection stamp.  One theory links the "w" with unfinished mantetsu blades sent to Tokyo 1st Arsenal under contract for final production, and the competing theory points to unstamped examples as the contract swords.  The finished sword would then be retailed to officers as a private purchase item through a shop supplied by or associated with the final producer/assembler?

 

Edit: I think I'm getting closer to up to speed and finally grasped what you meant.  One theory was that "Koa Isshin" signed blades were made at SMR, while "Mantetsu Tanzo Kore" were made at Nan-Man. Ohmura-san says that the mei "after March 1943" was "Mantetsu Tanzo Kore," but '43 and '44 "koa isshin" have been observed.  The nan stamp appearing in 1943 simultaneously with the "Mantetsu Tanzo Kore" mei appeared to corroborate the Nan-Man connection and offered an explanation for why two different mei would be used simultaneously.  Nan stamp on at least two '42 "Koa Isshin" blades makes things messy.  

 

FWIW, upon closer inspection this sword has a half-struck Tokyo 1st Arsenal inspection stamp on the kabutogane.  On the other side are two stamps so half-struck as to be illegible/inconclusive, but not inconsistent with Tokyo 1st Arsenal logo.  Thanks to Kiipu we know that the tsuka was on the sword before Showa22 started swapping parts around. 

 

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

21 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

 

 

The "YA" line was the last pure '42 line, with the MA line overlapping '42 & '43.  Yet, we don't see any Nan stamped blades showing up until 3 lines later with the '43 FU line, but not on Koa Isshin.  The year was mixed with both Koa and non-Koa blades, with the Nan on the non-Koa blades.  

 

This is something to contemplate.  Any thoughts @Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN?

 

PS: Rob, There are a few good sources for catching up on your Mantetsu gunto, but our article on them summarizes them all:

SMR - The Mantetsu Blade

It appears that the Mantetsu blades with the "Nan" mark on the blade can be interpreted as having been independently manufactured by the South Manchurian Army Arsenal, which began production in the spring of Showa 18 (1943) and incorporated technology from the South Manchurian Railway. Additionally, during the tenure of Matsuoka Yosuke, the former president of Mantetsu, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Japan, many people from the Army were offended. This may have been one of the reasons that led the Kwantung Army to abandon Matsuoka Yosuke's "Koa Isshin" slogan.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

South Manchurian Army Arsenal, which began production in the spring of Showa 18 (1943) and incorporated technology from the South Manchurian Railway

Trystan, forgive me if I knew this already, and have forgotten, but refresh my memory on this whole thing. I don’t remember another army arsenal called the South Manchurian army arsenal. I don’t doubt what you were saying, but just refresh my memory, please!  Do you think that this arsenal is the one using the Nan and Ren stamps?

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, RobCarter3 said:

This is what sucked me into the military sword space.  So much still unknown and actively being uncovered this board and similar ones

Ha!, You and me both brother! It appears you are a fast learner, as that was a really good summary of what we understand so far.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, RobCarter3 said:

On the other side are two stamps so half-struck as to be illegible/inconclusive, but not inconsistent with Tokyo 1st Arsenal logo

Right! Of the two stamps on the other side, the one on the right is of the Tokyo 1st Army Arsenal, and the one on the left is an unknown shop logo. We see it around here and there. The Tokyo 1st Arsenal star stamp started showing up in 1942 when the Kokura arsenal no longer held supervisory authority over the other arsenals.

[BANGBANGSAN]

33 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Trystan, forgive me if I knew this already, and have forgotten, but refresh my memory on this whole thing. I don’t remember another army arsenal called the South Manchurian army arsenal. I don’t doubt what you were saying, but just refresh my memory, please!  Do you think that this arsenal is the one using the Nan and Ren stamps?

South Manchurian Army Arsenal is 南滿陸軍造兵廠 also known as Nan-man Arsenal.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Additionally, during the tenure of Matsuoka Yosuke, the former president of Mantetsu, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Japan, many people from the Army were offended. This may have been one of the reasons that led the Kwantung Army to abandon Matsuoka Yosuke's "Koa Isshin" slogan.

Ahhhh Soooo!  OK I follow you. And I love the insight to the local politics that might’ve actually affected these swords. Pretty interesting idea.

[Kiipu]

Trystan, in my opinion, Nan-Man Arsenal [& Jinsen Arsenal] did not start blade production until 1945.  I think the blades that Nan-Man did manufacture could be the ones that started showing up in 1945 with no markings other than the serial number, such as い一一七〇.  Again, it is just an undocumented opinion and your learned opinion is just as valid as mine.

 

Thanks for all your help with those difficult Chinese & Japanese translations over the years.  I do appreciate all the time and effort you have given.

[BANGBANGSAN]

10 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Trystan, in my opinion, Nan-Man Arsenal [& Jinsen Arsenal] did not start blade production until 1945.  I think the blades that Nan-Man did manufacture could be the ones that started showing up in 1945 with no markings other than the serial number, such as い一一七〇.  Again, it is just an undocumented opinion and your learned opinion is just as valid as mine.

 

Thanks for all your help with those difficult Chinese & Japanese translations over the years.  I do appreciate all the time and effort you have given.

Thomas

I am grateful for your years of research and dedication. I have learned a lot from you. The following text about the Nan man arsenal is from Ohmura san, it shows they started to make swords in 1943 spring, please check it out.
南満陸軍造兵廠は、昭和13年6月「南満工廠建設要綱」が決まり、同年8月、陸軍造兵廠南満工廠※の編成が決定された。
奉天郊外の文官屯に約300万坪の敷地を有し、軍人・軍属12,000名、満人傭工等 数千人の規模だった。此処で将校用軍刀が製造され
た。
昭和20年4月、兵器行政本部から離れ、関東軍直轄の関東軍造兵廠となった。

 主たる生産兵器:  戦車（チハ車）・装甲車・牽引車・ロケットエンジン及び航空機部品等・砲弾（７５ミリ野砲弾）・榴弾
           （１０センチ榴弾、１５センチ榴弾）・爆弾（５０キロ爆弾）・軍刀（陸軍将校用軍刀）・火薬（安瓦薬、
           伝火薬、伝火薬筒、硝宇薬、茶褐薬、黄色薬）

 製造軍刀の種類; 陸軍将校用軍刀、生産工場: 南満陸軍造兵廠本廠及び南満陸軍造兵廠大連製造所軍刀工場
 （1）工程: 刀身 ； 満鉄撫順製鉄所製純鉄を心棒として高炭素鋼の筒中に挿入鍜伸、荒砥ぎ、熱処理、仕上げ砥ぎ
      その他； 外装、鍔付け、握り付け、鞘入れ、刀緒付け
 （2）生産能力   300振／月
 （3）生産期間  昭和19年10月～20年8月 (実際は昭和18年春より製造されている。たまたま特定期間が記載された事に注意)

「南」・「連」刻印を持つ刀身は、これらの情報から南満陸軍造兵廠が満鉄の技術導入で独自に製造したという解釈も成り立つが、「満鐵鍛造之」の銘から推測すると、満鉄から半完品で南満陸軍造兵廠に納められたものではなかろうか。未だ真相は謎である。