Magnificient daisho koshirae!

[Fuuten]

Good evening,

 

Hope all are well. Browsing Aoi the following daisho appeared. I think anyone would be in remiss not to see the koshirae (would be remised?). Sea horse menuki (definitely a first)?! Dai Tengu kashira (what's cooler than Tengu)?! Variedly themed its quite a nice composition (the only thing less my thing are the namban kojiri but that would be nitpicking it).

 

https://sword-auction.com/en/product/17555/as22714-大小宇多平国特別保存刀剣-無銘三原正興保存/

 

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Fuuten
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[Gakusee]

Axel, well, people's tastes are different. It might have some good elements but it feels put together incongruently, without following a continuous theme or aesthetic.

It just appears haphazard: Shoki...oni... tadpoles.... autumnal leaves.....masks..all sorts of clashing metals.

[Fuuten]

Sure Michael, I can get that view. This one however isn't all that shoddy to my eyes. And while perhaps not single themed they're definitely above average quality fittings. Did you ever sea-horsey menuki though?

[Alex A]

Axel, this is actually very interesting and raises a few questions as to how Daisho Koshirae actually get papered ?

 

See its achieved Tokubetsu Hozen.

 

As Michael mentioned, some matches, some obviously don't and plenty of quality to certain aspects.

 

Now im asking myself if NBTHK have purely given the result on the quality of the koshirae or maybe they also think or know that the Daisho was put together back in the late Edo and not cobbled together back in 1950 or whatever ?

 

Maybe it was recently sold as a family heirloom and there is evidence it had been in that form for quite some time.

 

The Ito is a bit out of the ordinary with the twists and don't appear that old but maybe its just been kept in really good condition. The ray skin has age but difficult to know. A lot of the time on older koshirae you see it missing, worn ito etc. Really is hard to know for sure.

 

Questions that need to be answered here, would be great to find out from those that actually papered it and how they got to their decision!

 

In any case, a lot to like.

 

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

I will be honest: I like the sea horse menuki most of all in this package but it is a bit like the tail wagging the dog from an interest perspective... Might be rather late-manufacture. The dai ito has some wear to it and greasing from handling while the sho - looks newer. They have different menuki etc so probably retied at a different time..... 

 

The was put together at different times with different elements.. Probably the tsuba were replaced at some point away from some more insect themed or marine themed....

 

However, there are some valuable elements in there and the NBTHK clearly wants to preserve those... That is why they probably papered them. 

[Matsunoki]

Personal opinion…..I’m really surprised this was papered as a daisho koshirae………really surprised. 

[Alex A]

Think there may be more to this than meets the eye, here.

 

Who knows, some original, some added later, some provenance?.

 

All we can do is speculate, unless someone knows NBTHK. and asks.

[Matsunoki]

45 minutes ago, Alex A said:

some provenance?.

That’s interesting Alex……is provenance a factor that can (should???) influence shinsa? 

[Alex A]

To me it is Colin.

 

Like you said,  "Personal opinion…..I’m really surprised this was papered as a daisho koshirae………really surprised.

 

Me too, so Im thinking, how can they paper it as a Daisho?, unless they have evidence it was carried as a Daisho?.

 

And not cobbled and paired together later.

 

[Matsunoki]

……..and we are back to the debate about “what exactly is a daisho”…….😳🙂

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am in Japan so I cannot check my books.

 

I believe description of koshirae is: 鯰革 : 鶴革足蛭巻腰刻鞘大小拵 - Catfish leather : Crane leg leather with spiraling upper portion. Well something in line of that.

 

To me it is a daishō koshirae that matches up quite well in overall. Having catfish & cranes in the theme as saya materials seem to be sourced from them. There might also be an explanation for tengu etc. in this theme in folklore. Of course I am not a koshirae person and dont know about them but for me this sale is mostly about the daishō koshirae and blades are just addons. Typing forum messages with phone is not fun.

[Baba Yaga]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Personal opinion…..I’m really surprised this was papered as a daisho koshirae………really surprised. 

 

Don't be surprised, this an example of a favor owed, With the Yen at -30% we will see many examples of not making "cents"  

[Matsunoki]

12 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

this an example of a favor owed

That rather makes a mockery of shinsa doesn’t it 🙁

[Alex A]

Maple leaves thrown in the mix too.

 

I really have to believe there is more than meets the eye here with available info to those that papered it.

 

Otherwise, where is the line going to get drawn with regards what gets passed.?

[Jussi Ekholm]

This is just personal opinion and like I said I am not very well versed in koshirae. However this touches a bit what Dave van Gompel was explaining about some lacquer techniques not being cost/time-effective in modern world.

 

I do think the matching pair of saya at least has some age. And saya are generally often the identifying part in item description NBTHK uses. And as they are probably done with fish skin & bird leg skin I am not sure if it is even done anymore by modern craftsmen. It is of course possible to build a matching koshirae around matching saya but it will take a lot of time & work.

 

Perhaps I am "gullible" but I see this as an older set. However one important part is seeing when 泰山元行 worked. As his fittings are used the package as such cant really predate this fittings maker. I cant find anything fast by google but I think this could be late Edo set.

[Matsunoki]

 

Looking at the skin that is used on the saya…..they appear to be totally different in both texture/pattern and colour. To me they look like skins from two different species?  I still struggle to see them as a matching pair of saya.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Yes you are correct. I believe the katana saya has catfish skin and the wakizashi saya skin of cranes feet.

[Matsunoki]

Just my opinion but I think the sho was assembled later than the dai in order to create the illusion of a daisho. The more you look the more you see the “mismatching” of both the subject matters, metals used etc

As already mentioned several times, there are some (but not all) lovely individual fittings but that alone does not a daisho make……hmmmmm

[Alex A]

Appears you guys have never heard the Japanese Folk-lore regarding the Catfish that became a Seahorse that left the water and did battle against an ogre in a Maple tree with a bamboo staff. Whist being watched by the all seeing crazy legs Crane.

 

 

Obviously joking. Need to know more about how NBTHK paper koshirae.

[Matsunoki]

9 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Appears you guys have never heard the Japanese Folk-lore regarding

You forget the others in attendance at the fight…..dragons (hard to spot), butterflies, cicada, the Tengu King plus of course Shoki chasing Oni all over the place all under a full moon.

 

[Alex A]

Aye, its a mixed bag alright.