Mei help - Kiyo Tsuna?

[Andi B.]

Hello,

 

I'm going to purchase a rusty wakizashi with this mei:

 

 

I read it:

 

山 Yama

城 Shiro

國 Kuni

住 Ju

清 Kiyo

? ?Tsuna? (character found in Yumoto's book)

 

so does it means "Kiyotsuna?, inhabitant of Yamashiro province"?

Are there any known Kiyotsuna's?

 

Thank you

[Tokaido]

Congratulation Andi, your translation is correct. :D

Most Kiyotsuna are from Suwo, Nio school and Koto.

I found one Kiyotsuna from Yamashiro Province in Hawley: Kiyo593

He Signed Yamashiro Kuni Fujiwara Kiyotsuna

and

Joshu ju Omi (no) Kami Fujiwara Kiyotsuna.

Worked 1661 so the sword should show Kanbun characteristics.

No entry in Fujishiro or Shinto Taikan found

 

Greetings

Andreas

 

PS: more pics availiable?

[Andi B.]

here is an overall pic (blade lenght = 55 cm):

 

(bigger version: http://www.brackebusch.de/online-pics/waki_02_omote01.jpg

 

...strange rust - I'm curious how it looks in real...

[Andi B.]

The blade arrived - it seems not as bad as it looks on the photos...

I have to remove a few red rust blisters and dimples which are filled with black rust and dirt.

Any hints how to remove the rust without affecting the "healthy" steel - oil, bone needles, chemical solutions etc?

(I don't want to grind the surface - that's the polisher's job...)

 

What do you think?

Can I assume, that the Mei "Yamashiro Kuni Ju Kiyotsuna" is real and not a Gimei?

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

  Andi B. said:

Can I assume, that the Mei "Yamashiro Kuni Ju Kiyotsuna" is real and not a Gimei?

 

  Tokaido said:

No entry in Fujishiro or Shinto Taikan found

 

Based upon the statement above, an 'unrated sword smith' is very unlikely to have his work or his mei copied. Still, before investing in a new polish, if that's the direction your headed in, it wouldn't hurt to send an oshigata of the mei to the NBTHK or NTHK for an initial opinion.

 

If nothing else, thoroughly oil the sword to begin stabilizing the rust. Let the polisher clean it up if that's where it is going.

 

  Andi B. said:

What do you think?

 

Assuming the mei is valid, the sword smith signed this piece which is some indication of his best effort and pride in his work. If you think this sword is one for your collection perhaps the expense of investing in a polish could be rationalized. If it isn't, suggest preserving it as best possible with careful attention, study it for what it has to offer, then let it go once you're ready to move on. These are decisions requiring that you set collecting objectives and do your homework. One of the difficulties with an unrated sword smith is the lack of kantei information about his personal workmanship, which means researching and comparing the sword to school work descriptions.

[edzo]

  nagamaki said:

Hello,

 

  Andi B. said:

Can I assume, that the Mei "Yamashiro Kuni Ju Kiyotsuna" is real and not a Gimei?

 

  Tokaido said:

No entry in Fujishiro or Shinto Taikan found

 

Based upon the statement above, an 'unrated sword smith' is very unlikely to have his work or his mei copied. Still, before investing in a new polish, if that's the direction your headed in, it wouldn't hurt to send an oshigata of the mei to the NBTHK or NTHK for an initial opinion.

 

If nothing else, thoroughly oil the sword to begin stabilizing the rust. Let the polisher clean it up if that's where it is going.

 

  Andi B. said:

What do you think?

 

Assuming the mei is valid, the sword smith signed this piece which is some indication of his best effort and pride in his work. If you think this sword is one for your collection perhaps the expense of investing in a polish could be rationalized. If it isn't, suggest preserving it as best possible with careful attention, study it for what it has to offer, then let it go once you're ready to move on. These are decisions requiring that you set collecting objectives and do your homework. One of the difficulties with an unrated sword smith is the lack of kantei information about his personal workmanship, which means researching and comparing the sword to school work descriptions.

 

Hi Franco,

 

I think you suggestion is a good one. I have a question regarding the oiling of the blade. How do you apply the oil to the blade? I am thinking if you rub it on the particulates in the rust may scratch the blade itself. Is this mute or should it be conducted and applied a special way?

 

Thanks

Ed F.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

For the cleaner areas Kleenex is fine to apply sword oil with a wiping motion, and for the heavier rust areas where there may be loose grit, I would probably use a Q-tip to apply the oil, so that you can see what is happening both on the surface of the sword and Q-tip. You could also use more of a dabbing motion with Kleenex in the rusty areas vs a wiping motion. Regardless, go light on the finger pressure and keep your fingers away from the ha, because rust or no rust they still cut, and with a rusty blade you're looking at a tetanus shot.

 

PS you never rub and you do not re-use soiled applying or cleaning material on the sword. See JSS/US website care article.

[Ted Tenold]

If there is an abundance of loose rust or crud shedding from the sword, you can use an adhesive lint roller for clothing. Rolling it over the surfaces of the sword picks off a lot of stuff if the blade is dry. If it's been oiled aready, this won't work well, but dry it's fairly effective. The adhesive is quite mild and will pick up lots of the shedding material without damage to the sword. The rollers have layers of fresh tape so once it's filled with debris, strip the layer and continue. It's also quite a bit safer for hands and keeps the stuff off the desk or floor.

[Jean]

Ed,

 

IMO, If I were to judge by the picture, unless polished or you being a seasonned veteran in Nihonto you'll have a hell studying anything

[Andi B.]

Here is a scan of the rust spots.

I will try to remove the thick layers with oil and bone scraper...

 

[edzo]

  nagamaki said:

Hello,

 

For the cleaner areas Kleenex is fine to apply sword oil with a wiping motion, and for the heavier rust areas where there may be loose grit, I would probably use a Q-tip to apply the oil, so that you can see what is happening both on the surface of the sword and Q-tip. You could also use more of a dabbing motion with Kleenex in the rusty areas vs a wiping motion. Regardless, go light on the finger pressure and keep your fingers away from the ha, because rust or no rust they still cut, and with a rusty blade you're looking at a tetanus shot.

 

PS you never rub and you do not re-use soiled applying or cleaning material on the sword. See JSS/US website care article.

 

Hi Franco,

 

Thank you very much again Franco, that is very helpful info should i need it. preserve and protect.

Respectfully,

Ed F.

[edzo]

  Ted Tenold said:

If there is an abundance of loose rust or crud shedding from the sword, you can use an adhesive lint roller for clothing. Rolling it over the surfaces of the sword picks off a lot of stuff if the blade is dry. If it's been oiled aready, this won't work well, but dry it's fairly effective. The adhesive is quite mild and will pick up lots of the shedding material without damage to the sword. The rollers have layers of fresh tape so once it's filled with debris, strip the layer and continue. It's also quite a bit safer for hands and keeps the stuff off the desk or floor.

 

Hi Ted,

Must say thats a great idea! I will equip myself with one of those.

 

Thanks again,

Respectfully,

Ed F.

[edzo]

  Jean said:

Ed,

 

IMO, If I were to judge by the picture, unless polished or you being a seasonned veteran in Nihonto you'll have a hell studying anything

 

Hi Jean,

 

I don't currently have a rusted blade to study I'm just building a knowledge base and am serious about the art form, study techniques, theory and protocols. I did inspected a sword (shinto), several weeks ago (part of a collection), that when I removed the tsuka from the nakago rust fell of and out. The blade was fine but i wondered how to properly deal with that just from a conservation point of view. I advised the owner not to touch it and expect I will be getting the blade back again in the near future to consider it. I have a lot to learn and this site great for that, its the human and experience component of it (this site), that makes it reign, at least for me. Thanks for your input.

 

Sincerely,

Ed F.

[Rinsan]

Hi

I'm attaching tsuna kanji from Robinson's book for comparison. Hope it will help.

[Andi B.]

Here is the Tsuna I found in Yumoto's book:

 

Not exactly as the one on my nakago but that's the closest I could found...