Signature on tsuka?

[DDangler]

Hello all,

 

I posted a wakizashi on the general forum and they’ve sent me this way. 
 

The gentlemen over there believe there is a signature on the top of the tsuka of a recently purchased nihonto. 
 

Any help you all could give for translation would be extremely helpful and appreciated. 
 

Thanks in advance!! My apologies for the poor pictures, they’re about as good as I can get. If they’re not good enough I will try again for you all though. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi, Joel, thanks for the multiple shots, makes things a lot easier. Much appreciated. 

These are usually artisan notations, rather than signatures.

Although I cannot immediately read it, to get the ball rolling, I think I can see 1, 2 from the top, possibly a 12. 一　二

[DDangler]

9 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Hi, Joel, thanks for the multiple shots, makes things a lot easier. Much appreciated. 

These are usually artisan notations, rather than signatures.

Although I cannot immediately read it, to get the ball rolling, I think I can see 1, 2 from the top, possibly a 12. 一　二

Thank you for this. The guys in the general forum came to the conclusion it may have been a 3 which would indicate a signature instead of a date. Or at least that’s how I understood it. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Haha, yes, apologies for not having read your thread. I've been looking for it (It's the $10 worth it one)and finally just found it, but not had time to finish reading through it.

I agree that 三 three might be possible. One of my dictionaries uses the old numbering system, and when a page number like 1,233 is written vertically it is quite confusing to tell where the separations are! Having said that, and without looking to see who said what, I am sticking with 12, but keeping 3 in reserve!

[DDangler]

3 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Haha, yes, apologies for not having read your thread. I've been looking for it (It's the $10 worth it one)and finally just found it, but not had time to finish reading through it.

I agree that 三 three might be possible. One of my dictionaries uses the old numbering system, and when a page number like 1,233 is written vertically it is quite confusing to tell where the separations are! Having said that, and without looking to see who said what, I am sticking with 12, but keeping 3 in reserve!

Your dedication and diligence to help me is amazing. Thank you for the help!! Please let me know if there is any way I can help. 

[Bugyotsuji]

There are at least four others here who may be able to take this reading further for you. Give this 24 hours. 
 

If you’re bored, here are some page numbers from my dictionary for you to sharpen your skills with.

 

 

 

[Brian]

TBH, it doesn't really matter if it is a signature or whatever it is. There is no significant info to be found there and not going to help with anything to know.
 

[SteveM]

Yeah - I've been watching this from a distance as: a) I can't make out any of the writing, so I don't have much to offer the discussion, and b) I feel that even if we could say for sure that it was a number, or a name, or some generic assembly mark ("this way up") it wouldn't give us many useful clues as to the nature of the item or the funky wrapping. It does look numerical, but I don't think its worth trying to clean it any more or take more pictures. 

 

 

[DDangler]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:16 AM, Brian said:

TBH, it doesn't really matter if it is a signature or whatever it is. There is no significant info to be found there and not going to help with anything to know.
 

It may not matter to you. Which is ironic because it appears this translation forum hasn’t had much action since my post. Seems you as the admin of this place would appreciate and find all queries viable because they are essentially the life blood of this site that you’ve built. Especially queries from those that have paid you for use of the site. 
 

The way I look at it is, it’s Japanese writing on a tsuka that I cannot translate. I had no idea there was even writing there. Thankfully some of your Eagle eyed members that commented on my other thread brought it to my attention and sent me here. 
 

I get it though, no one ever appreciates the new guys questions. What I also find ironic however, is someone that is new but wants to learn everything they can about their items to better appreciate and understand nihonto is told essentially that their question is beneath the forum. Please explain how that is a good business decision for the future of this forum? I don’t see how it helps to expand your membership or the appreciation for nihonto to future generations. I guess realistically that’s not my problem though. 
 

In all reality, is there specific rules to the translation forum? Did you read my other thread? I was literally sent here by other members to ask this silly question that apparently doesn’t matter. 
 

By saying “there is no significant info to be found there, and not going to help with anything to know” are you implying the member/members that advised me to come here for help were wasting my time for the fun of it or you’re just smarter and more knowledgeable than all of them? 

[george trotter]

Hey Joel, go easy man. Brian is a good guy who puts heaps into this site. His comment on writings sometimes found on hilt wood is that basically, we cannot tell much from them. Even when clear they cannot prove if the writing refers to the hilt craftsman, the shop name, the person who ordered the mounting or the blade owner.

I have asked this exact same question in the past and I know how much we can attribute to the sword's history based on ink markings on hilt wood. There are so many possibilities that the "answer' is usually whichever we choose to attribute to the marking to. I know this as I have chosen not to attribute anything firm to my hilt markings as it is un-provable and would (as Brian said) not be of any real help to do so.

I'm not speaking for Brian but I am saying that he was being helpful (as he has always been in the past). So, please don't take offence where none was intended.

All the best.

[DDangler]

14 minutes ago, george trotter said:

Hey Joel, go easy man. Brian is a good guy who puts heaps into this site. His comment on writings sometimes found on hilt wood is that basically, we cannot tell much from them. Even when clear they cannot prove if the writing refers to the hilt craftsman, the shop name, the person who ordered the mounting or the blade owner.

I have asked this exact same question in the past and I know how much we can attribute to the sword's history based on ink markings on hilt wood. There are so many possibilities that the "answer' is usually whichever we choose to attribute to the marking to. I know this as I have chosen not to attribute anything firm to my hilt markings as it is un-provable and would (as Brian said) not be of any real help to do so.

I'm not speaking for Brian but I am saying that he was being helpful (as he has always been in the past). So, please don't take offence where none was intended.

All the best.

Thanks for clarifying George. For the record, my post was not intended to be offensive. I believe there are legitimate questions contained in it. 
 

As for the writing or signature or whatever it is. I would like to know what it says, even if it doesn’t mean anything. It is obviously written there, so inherently it was written there for a purpose otherwise it wouldn’t be there. Not that it would give me any answers but IMO the more knowledge the better. 

[Matsunoki]

35 minutes ago, DDangler said:

I get it though, no one ever appreciates the new guys questions.

Many of us have answered your questions and helped where we can so saying that is simply rubbish. 
…..and imo Brian did not in any way say “ is told essentially that their question is beneath the forum”

5 minutes ago, DDangler said:

For the record, my post was not intended to be offensive.

Did you read it before hitting submit?

[DDangler]

10 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Many of us have answered your questions and helped where we can so saying that is simply rubbish. 
…..and imo Brian did not in any way say “ is told essentially that their question is beneath the forum”

Did you read it before hitting submit?

You’re correct. Many here have been more than helpful. I’ve also been extremely grateful and simply asked more questions, to try to learn more. I appreciate most all that have commented with constructive thought. I misspoke saying “no one ever appreciates the new guys questions”. My apologies. 
 

Brian’s posts on every thread I have posted have had a perturbed beneath him feel to them. Otherwise, I’d have never posted the above referenced post. It could very well be possible I misinterpreted them. That said, as a new guy here and no context for the reasoning behind his posts they’ve almost all come off as like he shouldn’t even have had to read it. 
 

I indeed did read it. Twice actually. I stand by what I said. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Try attempting it yourself, it would be easier to do in hand rather than making unreasonable demands on our extremely generous translators.

 

https://kanji.sljfaq.org/

 

https://translate.google.com/

[DDangler]

5 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Try attempting it yourself, it would be easier to do in hand rather than making unreasonable demands on our extremely generous translators.

 

https://kanji.sljfaq.org/

 

https://translate.google.com/

I see that this is going to go awesomely. 
 

Please re-read my posts. I’ve made no demands. Certainly not “unreasonable demands”. 

[Brian]

A good example of how text doesn't convey emotion or intent very well.
I can't type a lot. Fiber is down in our area, so my pc is down and I am trying to navigate admin duties with a cellphone. More than frustrating.
My post wasn't intended as rebuke or criticism. It was an attempt to make your life easier by informing a novice that in the field of Japanese swords, there is no real knowledge to be gained by chasing that perticular tail. There is one master tsukamakishi that sometimes signed old tsuka. Every other signature there really don't give info on anything.
Many times novices spend a huge amount of time chasing info that they find out later isn't of any significance. I was trying to save you time. If you still want to know, by all means pursue it. It's yours to do so.
An example: Over the years we have had many newcommers discovering "prayer papers" or important writing in little pieces of paper under the wrap of their tsuka. They come here and spend a ton of time trying to decipher these hidden messages. Only to find out they are folded paper spacers/padding for shape, and made from whatever scrap paper is lying around. From a scrap book to a shopping list.
To try and take the info I posted as trying to assist. That is all,
Have to go now, my brain hurts from typing on this thing.

[DDangler]

10 minutes ago, Brian said:

A good example of how text doesn't convey emotion or intent very well.
I can't type a lot. Fiber is down in our area, so my pc is down and I am trying to navigate admin duties with a cellphone. More than frustrating.
My post wasn't intended as rebuke or criticism. It was an attempt to make your life easier by informing a novice that in the field of Japanese swords, there is no real knowledge to be gained by chasing that perticular tail. There is one master tsukamakishi that sometimes signed old tsuka. Every other signature there really don't give info on anything.
Many times novices spend a huge amount of time chasing info that they find out later isn't of any significance. I was trying to save you time. If you still want to know, by all means pursue it. It's yours to do so.
An example: Over the years we have had many newcommers discovering "prayer papers" or important writing in little pieces of paper under the wrap of their tsuka. They come here and spend a ton of time trying to decipher these hidden messages. Only to find out they are folded paper spacers/padding for shape, and made from whatever scrap paper is lying around. From a scrap book to a shopping list.
To try and take the info I posted as trying to assist. That is all,
Have to go now, my brain hurts from typing on this thing.

No worries. Thank you for explaining, I appreciate it. Thank you as well for not taking my post badly, it wasn’t meant that way. I would still like to learn what is written on top of my tsuka as I don’t believe it is the same as writing on papers used as spacers. It could be a measurement for all I know. I just think it would be beneficial to learn everything I can about my pieces so I can learn more about nihonto in general. 
 

I hope your fiber is up and running sooner than later. Thanks again and my apologies if my comment was taken badly. 

[Stephen]

17 minutes ago, DDangler said:

I just think it would be beneficial to learn everything I can about my pieces so I can learn more about nihonto in general. 

Learning more about nihonto in general will not come from your abused 10$ pick up.

That come from studying the real thing. That and books. The more you learn the less you'll care about assembly marks and making a mountain out of a mole hill. 

AFA your history on board you've received ton more help than many newbies. Go work on the cleaning of rust to advance this beater.

[DDangler]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Learning more about nihonto in general will not come from your abused 10$ pick up.

That come from studying the real thing. That and books. The more you learn the less you'll care about assembly marks and making a mountain out of a mole hill. 

AFA your history on board you've received ton more help than many newbies. Go work on the cleaning of rust to advance this beater.

Stephen, first off. For like the 20th time. Thank you for your advice and help throughout my thread/threads. 
 

That said, I’ve received help because I’ve asked questions without worrying about looking stupid to the lot of you. I came here  with two different nihonto and both are legitimate according to everyone on this forum. My $10 pick up may not be up to your lofty standards but deep down it is a nihonto. This salty response after all your help is concerning. Emotional much? You literally followed the thread I made about my “beater” and were the one that commented the most.
 

 Learning everything I possibly can about “my $10 pick up” is exactly the right place for me to learn. As is my fatally flawed Nagamitsu. They’re the best place to learn because they’re in my hand, I can physically see them, inspect them, clean them and ask questions about them. Reading books may work for many of you here but not me. 

[Matsunoki]

9 minutes ago, DDangler said:

Reading books may work for many of you here but not me. 

 

You would learn more in a few hours reading the right books than you would looking at “rough” swords for weeks. Acquire knowledge first then apply it. But have it your way. I’m done.  
 

Btw…..I never for one moment thought you were stupid and I doubt anyone that has helped you thought so either. And sarcastic references to our “lofty standards” probably won’t get you much more help I fear. 
Now I’m really done. Bye.

[Stephen]

Make that two I'm out!

8 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Now I’m really done. Bye.

 

[DDangler]

2 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

 

You would learn more in a few hours reading the right books than you would looking at “rough” swords for weeks. Acquire knowledge first then apply it. But have it your way. I’m done.  
 

Btw…..I never for one moment thought you were stupid and I doubt anyone that has helped you thought so either. And sarcastic references to our “lofty standards” probably won’t get you much more help I fear. 
Now I’m really done. Bye.

Thanks and at this point, I’m sure I’ve burned whatever help could come from here. I hoped it wouldn’t happen but it appears many have taken offense to comments I’ve made. 
 

For the record my “lofty standards” comment was in response to Stephen saying I should study “the real thing”. IMO as bad shape as mine are they are in fact the real thing. I also never implied you personally thought I was stupid or anyone for that matter. I simply stated I wasn’t worried about looking stupid to any of you by asking my questions. Hell, I’m still not. 
 

If you don’t understand my point above then have a great life as well. 
 

[DDangler]

It’s great to see the lack of intestinal fortitude of men that think they’re experts on swords but don’t have the wherewithal to have a discussion with someone asking questions. 
 

Thanks for letting me know you alls character. 

[Ooitame]

34 minutes ago, DDangler said:

It’s great to see the lack of intestinal fortitude of men that think they’re experts on swords but don’t have the wherewithal to have a discussion with someone asking questions. 
 

Thanks for letting me know you alls character. 

Hi Joel, I was a newbie and chased different things, asked ignorant or possibly irrelevant questions.  Some will reply honestly and without disrespect, some will do the opposite. 99% of the replies and help I get are with honesty in their thoughts and without disrespect intended. Not telling anyone what to do, but be easy, take your time, do not read too much into replies as far as intent, and sometimes have thick skin.

[DDangler]

2 minutes ago, Ooitame said:

Hi Joel, I was a newbie and chased different things, asked ignorant or possibly irrelevant questions.  Some will reply honestly and without disrespect, some will do the opposite. 99% of the replies and help I get are with honesty in their thoughts and without disrespect intended. Not telling anyone what to do, but be easy, take your time, do not read too much into replies as far as intent, and sometimes have thick skin.

Thanks, I truly appreciate that. I understand and honestly thought once brian responded it would be over. Especially after my response back. 
 

I am still here and haven’t blocked or cancelled anyone because of their opinions. I’d venture to say there are at least a couple here who could take your advice even more so than myself. 

[ROKUJURO]

Joel.

just to come back to the main point of your post:

What is written on your TSUKA is probably a name, starting with MI, MITSU or SAN....(Japanese character for '3'). Handwritten characters are often found in that place, and with civilian swords, it is - in my experience - often a name of a craftsman who worked on the item. Sometimes it is not even a full name, but a 'work-name' or a nickname. These workers are not directly related to the bladesmith as this is a completely different craft, and these names are nowhere recorded.

It could as well be the name of the then owner or dealer who ordered the work.  

 

In your special case, the characters are difficult (or impossible) to read. Perhaps it is possible to "clean" the surface a bit to make it easier to photograph and read the symbols. But as you have heard in multiple versions, there is no helpful information to be gained from knowing it.

May I add that in making a (civilian) sword, seven different craftsmen share in the task. They work in different workshops and are not necessarily locally related.
It is a bit like with cars, where you find experts for motor issues, electronics, bodywork, paint jobs a.s.o.

Hope that helps a bit.

[DDangler]

13 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Joel.

just to come back to the main point of your post:

What is written on your TSUKA is probably a name, starting with MI, MITSU or SAN....(Japanese character for '3'). Handwritten characters are often found in that place, and with civilian swords, it is - in my experience - often a name of a craftsman who worked on the item. Sometimes it is not even a full name, but a 'work-name' or a nickname. These workers are not directly related to the bladesmith as this is a completely different craft, and these names are nowhere recorded.

It could as well be the name of the then owner or dealer who ordered the work.  

 

In your special case, the characters are difficult (or impossible) to read. Perhaps it is possible to "clean" the surface a bit to make it easier to photograph and read the symbols. But as you have heard in multiple versions, there is no helpful information to be gained from knowing it.

May I add that in making a (civilian) sword, seven different craftsmen share in the task. They work in different workshops and are not necessarily locally related.
It is a bit like with cars, where you find experts for motor issues, electronics, bodywork, paint jobs a.s.o.

Hope that helps a bit.

Outstanding!! This helps me significantly and I appreciate it immensely. Thank you!!
 

Knowing it doesn’t matter but just to put any apprehensions or could haves to bed. Presuming the name (used lightly) was imprinted with some sort of paint. If I was to use a fine grit sandpaper and take off a very thin layer of the grime, paint and junk would that substantially impact the character of this particular nihonto? 
 

I completely understand once finding out what it says will most likely have no bearing on the nihonto or the fittings. I just want to know what it says. 
 

 

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, DDangler said:

......If I was to use a fine grit sandpaper and take off a very thin layer of the grime, paint and junk would that substantially impact the character of this particular nihonto?......

Joel, 

this TSUKA is cracked and no longer authentic in the sense of complete and functional. So if it were mine, I would give it a first try with acetone before using something abrasive. The characters are written with SUMI (Japanese ink) which is made of soot, glue and water. It is quite resistant and penetrates a bit into the wood.

Only if the solvent does not work I would try steel-wool or fine grit sandpaper.   

I am confident that the value of your sword is not affected because of this minor intervention. 

General remark: For the SAMURAI user of a sword, the TSUKA with the silk binding and the SAYA (scabbard) were disposable items which had to be repaired or replaced as soon as they were damaged (by use in training or combat). So there is nothing wrong with having a blade restored and put into new KOSHIRAE.

[DDangler]

4 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Joel, 

this TSUKA is cracked and no longer authentic in the sense of complete and functional. So if it were mine, I would give it a first try with acetone before using something abrasive. The characters are written with SUMI (Japanese ink) which is made of soot, glue and water. It is quite resistant and penetrates a bit into the wood.

Only if the solvent does not work I would try steel-wool or fine grit sandpaper.   

I am confident that the value of your sword is not affected because of this minor intervention. 

General remark: For the SAMURAI user of a sword, the TSUKA with the silk binding and the SAYA (scabbard) were disposable items which had to be repaired or replaced as soon as they were damaged (by use in training or combat). So there is nothing wrong with having a blade restored and put into new KOSHIRAE.

Thanks for the insight!! I will give it a try and add pics if I can get the signature to be more legible. 

[b.hennick]

Sandpaper should not be used on a scabbard or handle (saya or tsuka) as the sand grains can fall inside and later scratch the blade or tang.