mass produced tsuba

[dimitri]

Hello everyone, I recently received a tsuba and asked Ray Singer if he could translate the signature for me. I had a doubt about the tsuba, finally the signature, on the auction site it was however written Edo period, well I did not buy it a fortune either.
Anyway...
Ray gave me the name but also told me that for him it was a series production. I didn't want to bother him anymore but my question is, were there a lot of tsuba made by mold and mass produced in the Edo period?
By cleaning it, toothbrush and soap, I discovered gold, was it also common? I ended up putting oil, that's why it shines.
Thanks to Ray and thanks in advance for future answers.
Good day.

[ROKUJURO]

Dimitri,

this one is clearly cast and has no value for serious collectors.

The technique of casting iron was known and used in the EDO period, and single TSUBA could have been made by that method, however, there is no proof that it was done on a larger scale. Instead, the experts are sure that cast iron TSUBA appeared only at the end of the EDO period in larger numbers as souvenirs for Western tourists. 

[vajo]

Its cast like Jean said.

[dimitri]

Thank you gentlemen, well luckily I didn't pay a fortune, it was dirty, traces of rust, photos which vaguely showed a signature but I thought it was due to a tsuba not cleaned, I said to myself why not we'll see . well, what am I going to do with it 😒🤔 .....

[vajo]

You can mount it on an assembled wakizashi or sell it. Its not worth to collect. 

[dimitri]

Yes I will sell it, I will see that. THANKS

[Spartancrest]

https://www.jauce.com/auction/c1094661743  or  https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/c1094661743  Identical cast copy, the notches in the top and bottom of the nakago-ana are a good indicator, they are very similar in a lot of cast pieces.  

 

[dimitri]

Thank you, indeed. a mold but on the one I put up for sale this morning at my house does not have the same traces of wear. In any case, I think this story will serve as a lesson to me, to be very careful on the net, finally on auction sites. I'm going to calm down a bit and read, learn with the books that I just bought.
Thanks again for all your replies.

[GRC]

22 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

in larger numbers as souvenirs for Western tourists. 

Hi Jean,

I have to point out that there's still no evidence to support that... or at least none has been presented to date on this forum.

Which experts have made that conclusion and what evidence was that based upon?

Mass production of Shi-iremono was in full swing by the mid-1700s, so mass production was originally intended for the Japanese market.

 

Also note:

I'm not at all implying that this particular tsuba was made then, nor am I passing judgement on who it was made for.

 

I'm merely commenting on that above statement that came across as a "statement of fact" rather than the opinion expressed by some or other author at some point... who still seems to be unnamed.

 

[vajo]

Glen i saw that video from the expert and have the same thoughts about iron cast edo tsuba. Ashigaru Samurai were very poor. Most of theire wakizashi, tanto and other personal weapons are lower quality so the cast tsuba are a cheap option. Btw not all cast tsuba a brittle like modern iron cast and break if they falling on the ground 

[Soshin]

I think the tsuba in question is very poor quality and was made for tourists and for the export trade.    It is not likely even Edo Period and dates from the early to mid-part of the Meiji Period.    

 

[Spartancrest]

I wonder how many more of this pattern are getting about? Dimitri's, Chis's and the one I found are all in different condition so they are not the same piece reoccurring. I bet Chris was as frustrated as I was that the image to his find didn't lead to a full picture - annoying!  

Found another with very interesting reading attached-     https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/Japanese-samurai-sword-guard-tsuba-dragon

 

"All our items are original ones. Not replicas. - - -  Made in the Edo period (1603 - 1868) State : Very Good Size (cm) : about 6.8cm X 6.3cm X 0.4cm. Nakago Ana 2.8cm X 0.8cm This is the true and genuine samurai sword Tsuba made from Iron base. Very Nice Dragon Design Tsuba "

 

Well nothing wrong with being optomistic! 

 

The images below show there are plenty getting about [I could add more but I think the point is made!]  Some have guilding, some have been attached to a sword or at least give that impression and even though each is a casting they are not images of repeats [check the location of the guilding or lack thereof]  - some sellers are actually guilty of telling the truth that they are in fact castings - who would have thought! 

[dimitri]

Dale, so there, respect, you had to scratch hard on the net to find all this. I am amazed at all these models, almost all different with or without gilding. so ultimately the small tsuba is cheap. Thank you for everything .

[Bugyotsuji]

Yesterday I bought a very small cast iron tsuba, black lacquered, almost circular, (5 cm +/-) with a genbu tortoise motif. Surely never been on a blade, but if you filed out the nakago ana I guess it could be fashioned to fit a slim tanto.

 

PS Don't ask how much it cost. 
 

 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Q. How much did it cost? 

A. I told you not to ask me that!

[Spartancrest]

Somewhere under all that black paint [or is it powder coated?] might be hiding this?

A little bigger
55 mm x 53 mm x 4 mm

 

[Baba Yaga]

On 6/7/2023 at 10:11 AM, ROKUJURO said:

Dimitri,

this one is clearly cast and has no value for serious collectors.

The technique of casting iron was known and used in the EDO period, and single TSUBA could have been made by that method, however, there is no proof that it was done on a larger scale. Instead, the experts are sure that cast iron TSUBA appeared only at the end of the EDO period in larger numbers as souvenirs for Western tourists. 

 

Can you please provide the names of those experts, or is the word used loosely? 

[Bugyotsuji]

Maybe it’s a cast copy of your original there, Dale!?!? It’s much rougher, even seen through the coating.

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

copy of your original

I think calling it an original might be a stretch - looks like they were also mass produced, seen a number of them over the years. Copy of a copy = diminishing returns.

[ROKUJURO]

6 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

Can you please provide the names of those experts, or is the word used loosely? 

It is used loosely. If you read through the available litterature, you will find this stated as a general opinion of the researchers.

[Baba Yaga]

10 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

Can you please provide the names of those experts, or is the word used loosely? 

Thanks!

 

I'm not sure when casting started, or why "some" collectors believe casting is inferior to forging. Especially, for the facts we're discussing a hand guard. What is a fact, their are good casting and poor castings of late and of far. The one presented is obviously of poor quality, and that's about as specific as one with collectors knowledge can "assume". After looking at what's good, one can make an educated assumption on what's not.      

[dimitri]

Good or not, there are still details for a standard tsuba especially since there are several variants, there is still research. good after if I do not sell it I will keep it for the example of purchase not to reproduce.

[roger dundas]

Can I add a little comment that I found amasing from many years ago.

I had a friend, an American car designer from General Motors, Detroit who came to work here in GM, Melbourne in the 1960s.  He was a collector particularly of "primitive Art' but as a trained artist gad a great appreciation of all hand crafted art.

He compared hand crafted art objects as just such admirable items compared to those "pooped" out of a machine, cast or molded.

Ever since I heard him say that, I have had an aversion to so called art objects "pooped" out of a machine or mold.

But that's just me.

Roger j

[Baba Yaga]

Did your friend tell you that GM engine blocks , transmissions, alternators were made from cast and are still today. 

I wouldn't exactly say something which is propelled by an explosive atomized gas for 10's of thousands of miles pooop.

Now days Rolex watches are 3d printed.      

[roger dundas]

Sometimes it was surprising Baba Yaga just what would intrigue or enthuse him, interest him.  He ended up transforming into a teacher in way outback South Australia in the country about Alice Springs, teaching in remote communities.

Those places were generally in harsh isolated areas, the homelands of a very primitive people but he loved it, even taking up with an aboriginal woman and fathering a daughter to add to his Danish wife and four European children. It didn't end well for him.

The point I wanted to make was him showing me a coil of greenhide rope that some of his aboriginal friends had made, cutting it out very skillfully from a raw skin from a beast. It was very carefully and evenly cut, possibly 30 foot long. He loved the careful skill involved in it's making.

He had a wonderful collection of wood, stone and woven aboriginal items that he told me somehow ended up in the U.K.

Roger j

[rematron]

It’s an interesting point, Roger. I think about this difference between handmade and pooped out in one of my own hobbies: embroidery. I started off 20 years ago doing it all by hand. As time went by I realized that if I ever wanted to make a business out of my art, I would never be able to charge people for the time it took me to finish a piece. So, I bought an industrial embroidery machine and software and learned how to digitize images. Now there are two different kinds of products. I can look across my room at two objects that wouldn’t exist without me. One of them is something I did completely by hand and if it were damaged it would be a real loss because it was one of a kind and I put my heart into it. Next to it is an embroidery that I printed via machine. If this piece of art were to be damaged, it would be okay because I could just print another one. Now the value isn’t in the piece itself but in the process. The part that is valuable is now the software and digital file that enables me to create another one. The time I put into digitizing is the real work of art. 

[ROKUJURO]

We often forget that art works we admire today were made in times when there was no watch to "measure" the work. The scale was different: craftsmen and artists were paid by their finished work, not by the time it took to make it. This lead to great efforts to produce good quality. We should also remember that pre-industrial craftsmen used to sell mostly in their neighbourhood to known customers. A good reputation, based on good quality, was very important, and the craftsman put his pride into the making of every workpiece!  

Compared with industrial production, I think it is psychologically understandable that these different production ways result in different values and probably different 'charisma' of the respective item, if I may use this term.

In another culture, it is believed that a hand-made item, used extensively by humans, will take up some of the human spirit. As an example, an old household knife, used with respect for generations, will not be discarded at the end of its life as a useful tool, but brought to the SHINTO priest. In a ceremony, he will then release the KAMI who had made his home in this knife. After that, the remains of this old knife are just scrap and can be recycled.
Japanese people believe that industrially produced items will never have a KAMI.

To an extent, respect comes from understanding and can be learned.

[Baba Yaga]

Yep, I'm a purist.  I collect many items, Guns, Swords, Coins, Vases, Woodblock, Watches, Cars, etc. If I collect it, it's been knocked off by the masses. In most cases , rarer just means better knockoffs. I can empathize, but that's the poison we swallow.