Wakizashi in koshirae - discussion, and check my notes

[GeorgeLuucas]

Hello all, I have shared images of this sword on other groups/forums, so apologies if you've seen it and discussed with me before.

I'm a novice and a beginner, so I'm trying to hone my ability to identify features. Also practicing photography and measuring - which is more challenging than I could have ever imagined! 
I found this o-wakizashi at a local Militaria sale for a price I couldn't refuse. What drew me to the purchase was the koshirae in particular, which features kiri-mon fuchi/kashira, ww2 saya, horse harness menuki, a really interesting habiki, and nunome zogan tsuba with fukurin.  

It's Shinogi Zukuri, mumei, torisori, and I think Ubu. Hamon is Suguha throughout, it features an iorimune, and ichimonji nakagojiri.

I think the Hada is itame, but some swirls in the hamon make me think maybe mokume? Would love to hear opinions on this

I think the blade has issues in the Kissaki. Which I know is about the worst place for issues to appear - especially because it makes it hard to study that area... Would love to hear any and all opinions and observations. Im particularly interested in how old it might be, I was thinking maybe mid-edo after discussing with some other collectors, but i'm a novice and beginner and it's just a guess

Nagasa - 56.6 cm
Sori - 1 cm
Kasane - 6.5 mm
Motohaba - 2.6 cm
Sakihaba - 1.6 cm
Kissaki - 2.6 cm
Nakago Length - 14.7cm 
.
. *posting additional comments for more images*
.

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

[GeorgeLuucas]

[vajo]

Its an old blade. 

i would look in direction of yamato senjuin (yamashiro school) or uda. 

About the age hard to judge my guess is nambokucho.

 

[Brian]

Looks saveable, I think there is still hamon in the kissaki and even with a few nicks and a few rust pits, nothing looks fatal to me. But I just took a very brief glance.
Looks like a decent old sword. Long pre-war. Very interesting habaki. Don't write this one off just yet.

[GeorgeLuucas]

25 minutes ago, vajo said:

Its an old blade. 

i would look in direction of yamato senjuin (yamashiro school) or uda. 

About the age hard to judge my guess is nambokucho.

 

Oh, man, If it were Nanbokucho I would literally jump for joy!
I know thats just a guess, and short of shinsa, I might never know - but that would be so exciting to me! Way to give me some hope, haha

I picked this up for $200 dollars (USD), and I justified that because I really enjoy the Koshirae. My initial thought was Shinto, but that Nakago looks old to me. So if the blade is interesting at all, I consider this a big win 

Thanks for your input, its much appreciated. Looking forward to researching more about Yamashiro school features 
-Sam

Edit: If any other pictures would help, let me know and I will do my best
 

[vajo]

I adjust the light in PS a little. 

 

 

I like the bo-hi on one side.

[GeorgeLuucas]

10 minutes ago, vajo said:

I adjust the light in PS a little. 

 

 

I like the bo-hi on one side.

Thank you! those photos help me see a lot more

The Bo-hi is actually on both sides, and extends about halfway up the blade.  The horimono line (not sure if thats the right term) extends past the bohi a few inches. 

One one side that "horimono line" under the bohi, looks to have been polished down a bit. Suggesting, to me, that this blade has seen a polish at lease once. Please correct me if any of my statements or assumptions are incorrect here

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

since I accidentally bumped my thread. here's a recent attempt to capture more activity


 

[jt nesbitt]

Sam-

 As the most amateur member on this board, and the guy who is always buying old worn out junk then pestering the good people here to waste their time analyzing it for me -  please take everything that I am about to post with Extreme Reservation!

 I love this sword. 

 The second smaller groove that you are seeing below the main bohi is called a soe-bi. Technically the groove pattern that you have is a koshi-bi with soe-bi. You are right to notice that a faint soe-bi is a great indication of polishing. Like the tread of a tire. Yours doesn't look that that bad, compared to others out there, so that tells me that there is thick enough kawagane surface steel (health) left in this blade for a professional polish to be conducted. There are some deep pits in the kissaki and mune that are going to remain, but I suspect that they may be able to be disguised by a good polisher as "ware" - forging flaws and openings that are typically not a deal killer on koto swords. Generally speaking, old swords get a pass when it comes to imperfections like this.

 Which brings me to the next topic, age. I think that this is a legit OLD sword. My best guess is that this is a seriously chopped katana. Probably a late Muromachi period (1580's) katana. Swords were shortened ALL the time in the old days prior to about the 1620's.

 In the late Muromachi period, they were making swords that resembled massive Nanbokucho blades, and the general consensus is that what the smiths in the late Muromachi were going for is something that looked liked shortened Nanbokucho stuff  - so that you could buy new and not have to cut up an oldie, but still use it in the same way. I have one of those Muromachi blades in my collection (Echizen Kanenori) has a nagasa of 30", so if it had a serious o-surigae down to wakizashi size, you might not see the original mekugi-ana at all, just like what I THINK is shown here.

 There is a boshi on this one but it looks to my eye like the the kissaki has been re-shaped as it looks a little thinner than the hamon. That would be consistent with chu-kissaki seen on these late Muromachi, Nanboucho-style katana. For some reason, this sword kinda reminds me of my Kanenori with it's elegant sori, nicely done itame hada (not too big, not too fine, just right), and very tastefully executed bohi.

 I am a firm believer that ALL of these old things have value. If they are well crafted, that means that somebody dedicated a lifetime of learning to make it, and that passion has value to me. Having nihonto experts express admiration, and subsequent papers is a very important component to learning this subject matter, but you have a GREAT learning tool in your hand right now. I hope that you use it.

 - - - -Books that you should buy right now (heck I had to use these just to be sure my spelling was correct a few times in this dumb post!): - - - 

"The Connoissur's Book Of Japanese Swords" by Kokan Nagayama

"Encyclopedia Of Japanese Swords" by Markus Sesko

Congratulations on a great find! Considering the price that you paid - I would definitely send this out for polish....Ya got nothing to loose. -- JT

 

[Jon]

$200 that’s a brilliant find, even an  Arsenal stamped Gunto is worth $200 ( infact they seem to be going for silly money these days,  I’ve seen them selling at auction for £500 or around $700) but this is not a gunto it’s a Nihonto, good find, may be worth seeing if you can get a window Polish ( a small part of the blade polished ) to help study the blade ( before investing in a full Polish) although at the price you paid it would be probably economic to just go for a full Polish anyway).

[GeorgeLuucas]

1 hour ago, jt nesbitt said:

Sam-

 As the most amateur member on this board, and the guy who is always buying old worn out junk then pestering the good people here to waste their time analyzing it for me -  please take everything that I am about to post with Extreme Reservation!

 I love this sword. 

 The second smaller groove that you are seeing below the main bohi is called a soe-bi. Technically the groove pattern that you have is a koshi-bi with soe-bi. You are right to notice that a faint soe-bi is a great indication of polishing. Like the tread of a tire. Yours doesn't look that that bad, compared to others out there, so that tells me that there is thick enough kawagane surface steel (health) left in this blade for a professional polish to be conducted. There are some deep pits in the kissaki and mune that are going to remain, but I suspect that they may be able to be disguised by a good polisher as "ware" - forging flaws and openings that are typically not a deal killer on koto swords. Generally speaking, old swords get a pass when it comes to imperfections like this.

 Which brings me to the next topic, age. I think that this is a legit OLD sword. My best guess is that this is a seriously chopped katana. Probably a late Muromachi period (1580's) katana. Swords were shortened ALL the time in the old days prior to about the 1620's.

 In the late Muromachi period, they were making swords that resembled massive Nanbokucho blades, and the general consensus is that what the smiths in the late Muromachi were going for is something that looked liked shortened Nanbokucho stuff  - so that you could buy new and not have to cut up an oldie, but still use it in the same way. I have one of those Muromachi blades in my collection (Echizen Kanenori) has a nagasa of 30", so if it had a serious o-surigae down to wakizashi size, you might not see the original mekugi-ana at all, just like what I THINK is shown here.

 There is a boshi on this one but it looks to my eye like the the kissaki has been re-shaped as it looks a little thinner than the hamon. That would be consistent with chu-kissaki seen on these late Muromachi, Nanboucho-style katana. For some reason, this sword kinda reminds me of my Kanenori with it's elegant sori, nicely done itame hada (not too big, not too fine, just right), and very tastefully executed bohi.

 I am a firm believer that ALL of these old things have value. If they are well crafted, that means that somebody dedicated a lifetime of learning to make it, and that passion has value to me. Having nihonto experts express admiration, and subsequent papers is a very important component to learning this subject matter, but you have a GREAT learning tool in your hand right now. I hope that you use it.

 - - - -Books that you should buy right now (heck I had to use these just to be sure my spelling was correct a few times in this dumb post!): - - - 

"The Connoissur's Book Of Japanese Swords" by Kokan Nagayama

"Encyclopedia Of Japanese Swords" by Markus Sesko

Congratulations on a great find! Considering the price that you paid - I would definitely send this out for polish....Ya got nothing to loose. -- JT

 

Hi JT, Thank you! - reservations understood; I am also a very amateur member

Thank you for the time, effort, and care you put into this response. I appreciate it a ton, and this is exactly the kind of information and discussion that helps my notes and propels my studies

Soe-Bi / Koshi-Bi with Soe-Bi. Thank you for that identification, thats perfect for my notes, and now I can refer to these features properly. And thanks for confirming that you also see Itame Hada; I was worried my eyes were misidentifying that

Very exciting that you believe it to be late Muromachi. After these discussions, and further study, I also believe it to be o-suriage. I believe I can see the hamon run into the nakago. And thanks for the kind words about my sword, I just wish that Kissaki were in better shape 

Im glad it appears to be OLD / pre-shinto. I plan to learn everything I can from this sword. As a novice, it's been an invaluable study tool, and has taught me a lot already. I hope to learn even more from it! 

As far as a polish goes. I would LOVE to have it polished / assessed by a togishi. That will likely be my next step with this particular blade. I've never sent a sword in for polish, so that alone would be a learning opportunity for me

BOOKS! I love books. I've been pouring over "The Connoissur's Book Of Japanese Swords", "Markus Seskos encyclopedia" , and "Kanzan Satos The Japanese Sword" for a couple years now. They have been awesome resources. Although, I'm now starting to see the biggest progress in my studies from seeing swords in-person and discussions. Next on my reading list / shopping cart are the Kentai 1 & 2 supplements from Markus Sesko

Thanks for chatting this sword with me!
I appreciate it a lot, and you've given me some great information to look into
Cheers,
-Sam




 

[GeorgeLuucas]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

$200 that’s a brilliant find, even an  Arsenal stamped Gunto is worth $200 ( infact they seem to be going for silly money these days,  I’ve seen them selling at auction for £500 or around $700) but this is not a gunto it’s a Nihonto, good find, may be worth seeing if you can get a window Polish ( a small part of the blade polished ) to help study the blade ( before investing in a full Polish) although at the price you paid it would be probably economic to just go for a full Polish anyway).

Truly a once in a lifetime find (for me) - I will probably be chasing this high for years, haha

Guntos are indeed demanding high prices these days. I've been keeping my eyes out for an affordable type 98 or Type 3 (although I should probably be saving that money for a polish instead)

Thanks for the input
Cheers,
-Sam

[GeorgeLuucas]

Reviving my thread from the dead (for the last time I promise!)

Questions for the more experienced: Have I captured the Boshi in these images? Or am I just seeing signs of the hada in the kissaki?

Also, is the red circled area an example of Nie and Chikei?

Cheers!
-Sam

[mywei]

The black dots circled appear to be ji-nie

 

Good pickup for $200 IMO!

[GeorgeLuucas]

13 minutes ago, mywei said:

The black dots circled appear to be ji-nie

 

Good pickup for $200 IMO!

Ji-nie, that’s very exciting, thank you! 

Its been gratifying to admire and study 

 

[Brian]

Yes, the boshi is clear and healthy.

[GeorgeLuucas]

Thanks for your help Brian, and everyone else who contributed. It means a lot that ya’ll share your expertise with newcomers like me

 

I’ve learned a lot, and have a lot to learn!

 

Cheers,

-Sam 

[Jcstroud]

It certainly shows the difference between what is and what was a really nice example of a blade with much history if only it could talk!

[GeorgeLuucas]

Update:
I just got word from the Togishi!

He believes my sword to be Yamato Tegai school, shortened Tachi, probably late Kamikura period. The kitaeware in the kissaki is a problem, and might never polish out - BUT he believes it to be worthy of a polish and very quality work. He mentioned chikei and jinei, hakikake boshi, and mokume hada. 

This is VERY VERY exciting for me. I'm so glad I found this sword, got it off the shelf, and into a togishi's hands. Something told me it was special, and I'm glad that i'm beginning to learn how to recognize that (or maybe this was a total fluke ).

What an amazing learning experience, and now I have a real responsibility of choosing what to do next

Thank you again everyone for all your help,
Cheers,
-Sam

[WillFalstaff]

This is totally worth an in-hand examination by your Togishi (as long as he's a reputable one. Sorry, I breezed through this thread so didn't read all of it.). If it is confirmed to be what it is believed to be, then spend the money and get it polished. Having a blade potentially be from the Kamakura period and in polish is a win-win. 

[Stephen]

I think you know what to do.

Your not in it to recover cost but tp  preserve its history.

Enjoy the adventure. 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Preserving history is the goal. Everything i've learned in the process is just a bonus! 

I was given a few options on next steps, but I have not decided.

Rest assured - all options end with this sword being restored and cared for. 

Cheers,
-Sam

[Rivkin]

As little can be seen and earlier Tegai being an option, I personally would still vote for sue-Tegai of Muromachi period.

The activity is complex and roundish swirls of ko nie are not that common in early blades but are more typical for Muromachi.