Proper Etiquette and Horimono

[jt nesbitt]

Hello again my friends!

 I had to dip out for awhile as I was finishing up a motorcycle project, but for better or worse- I am back in the game.

 So here is a question - Is it considered appropriate to apply new horimono to older blades? 

 What I am thinking about is a trip to Japan (my first), with the goal of engaging with a craftsman to apply a bespoke horimono on a Shinshinto wakizashi. The horimono that I have in mind is "period correct" and the wakizashi that I have my eye on is "nice" but not a masterpiece. It does not have some profound and amazing hada that would be ruined by horimono. 

 Would I be coming across as a total jerk for asking this of a traditional artist? 

 Anybody have any idea who could execute the work, and what does this cost?  

 I have seen video of an engraver in the Osafune Sword Village, The Wakizashi is in Tokyo....If I buy a blade in one location, then carry it to somebody else's workshop, could I get in trouble for carrying a concealed weapon?

 Thanks for any advice, I for sure don't want to fly all the way to Japan only to insult people that I have so much respect for. -- JT

 

[Baba Yaga]

"So here is a question - Is it considered appropriate to apply new horimono to older blades?"

 

Why would would you do this? Why not buy a sword with horimono on it already??? 

If you're visiting Japan, lots of cherries are low hanging.  

 

 

[jt nesbitt]

Patricius-

 Yeah, I come up with a lot of dumb ideas, but I guess one could ask "why buy a Gendaito, when there are already so many old swords available?"

I think that it could be a tremendous learning experience, or a total dumpster fire. Cool excuse to go to Japan though...

Anybody have any experiences like this?  -- JT

[Geraint]

JT, why not go the whole hog and commission a wakizashi with horimono?  That way it will stand the test of time and you will have something really special.

 

All the best.

[jt nesbitt]

Geraint-

  I have thought about that a lot. And it might be the route that I take, but the question about the cultural acceptance of applying new horimono to old blades remains. Is it acceptable? -- JT

[John C]

1 hour ago, jt nesbitt said:

It does not have some profound and amazing hada

I suppose another question may be does the softer hada of the wak you are looking at have enough room for the horimono you are looking at? I guess that could be adjusted by the carver. In addition, you may run into issues just under the surface carving into a blade with unknown characteristics. 

Just thinking out loud...

John C.

[jt nesbitt]

Hey John-

 Since all horimono (ancient and modern) are done ato-bori, I am going to assume that a large part of the craft is determining how to cut, and where to cut it. Involving the craftsman in initial blade selection would be a good idea I suppose, but I don't have any solid info. Hoping someone here has good intel on this subject. -- JT

[ROKUJURO]

Your main questions have not been answered, so here goes:

No, you are not allowed to carry a sword - concealed or not - in public in Japan. This will end in jail (you, not the blade) and the sword confiscated.

You need a special permit to handle swords outside a house; dealers and craftsmen related to swords will have that. A dealer will have no problem sending the sword to a carver.

Concerning HORIMONO: In the past, they were often added later to existing blades, so your idea is not weird at all. The question arises if a HORIMONO can be an embellishment, and my belief is that the quality of the work will decide this. There are many HORIMONO that are done 'fast and dirty' - and those that are admired.

I have no idea about prices, but I would assume that a renowned carver may charge a few YEN for his work.

[Mark]

not sure i understand your statement  Since all horimono (ancient and modern) are done ato-bori,  there are plenty of swords that have horimono done by the swordsmith at the time he made the blade

[Alex A]

I wouldn't, might be some opening a lurking just ready to be discovered

[jt nesbitt]

Mark-

 Perhaps I have misused the term Ato-bori. What I was driving at is that all horimono are applied after forging and polishing, by a specialist. The Marcus Sessko encyclopedia defines the term as "carvings on a sword blade added later". He doesn't specify how much later...

 Anyway - my question is do you have any experience with traditional Japanese engravers? Can you point me in the right direction? And have you ever enquired about having an old blade engraved, if so, did you get any push-back on the topic? -- JT

[Toryu2020]

JT -

There are annual contests for blade making and engraving. The artists are well known. Sometimes older blades are used but most often it is new swords with new engraving. I expect many engravers would welcome the work. You might consider becoming a patron to one such artist and commission a sword and horimono for submission to one of these contests. There is a big caveat - I would think most of these artists would not work for just anybody, you need to be a known entity with an introduction from the right people. This could mean more than one trip to Japan and a demonstrated understanding of the art and the artist. I had occasion to live in Japan a few years and I found for best results it paid for both sides to take their time. Requires a good deal of patience. I would start by looking at the old exhibition catalogues for examples of the engravers work and getting to know makers of modern swords and by extension Horimono-shi...

 

-tch

[Franco]

53 minutes ago, jt nesbitt said:

all horimono are applied after forging and polishing

 

From my experience of having a soe bi recut that had been polished away overtime in more than one place on a blade being restored, the recutting of the soe bi came after the foundation polish was completed, but before the final finishing steps of the polish. Polishing the newly cut soe bi was part of the finishing steps. 

 

Regards,

[PNSSHOGUN]

Similar concept with thoughts & advice on the current top Horimonoshi:

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

The genius Henmi Toyo used to carve horimono into his own blades.

 

I know the artisan you are referring to in Osafune. A great guy, and he gets excellent results in the shinsa competitions, but charges the moon earth for his work, and besides his work for upcoming competitions, he has other orders up to the gills.

 

I saw an amazing o-mi yari into which he had inserted a dragon a couple of years back, and the asking price to the general public was ￥5,000,000 (with the yari thrown in, I guess). It did win a top prize, though.

 

Recently (back in December?) I asked him to organize something (not a horimono) for me but it was a mistake. I should not have gone through him, because he probably felt he could not refuse me. I should really take the pressure off his shoulders by asking for it back.

 

For a shinshinto wakizashi, you should probably lower your sights a bit. If you do want to order really top work, maybe choose a better blade for it. Maybe you could even start learning the skill!?!? 

[jt nesbitt]

Piers-

 Thanks for the reply. Looks like you have had interaction with the kind of people that I should reach out to. Do you have any contact info for any of these craftsmen? There must be some sort of business manager who facilitates commissions, and handles sales inquiries right? Thank you. -- JT

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm… let me ask some people this Saturday evening.

 

Oh, by the way, it is legal to carry a blade in public here, but make sure a) it has the registration card with it, and b) it is safely packaged/wrapped in some kind of way that it is obvious you can not draw it easily. You should also have your reason ready if in the unlikely event the police stop-check you. If you can’t say it, get a note written for you explaining the purpose of your journey with it, and the phone number and address of the person who wrote it. Always better to be safe than sorry when it comes to dealing with law enforcement here.

 

[Baba Yaga]

Once again, this conversation is all over the place. "IF" someone wants to do this and that's a big "IF". 

This isn't some assembly line which to put in an order. It's one master and one apprentice working.

You'd be looking at 2 years waiting time for a true master. Some ShintoShinto blade is going to be a NO GUARENTEE. 

Id visit the 3 big sword dealer and see what they have, or what they could broker. 

 

[Larason2]

Personally I wouldn't put a new engraving on an old blade, but for me it would mostly be for preserving the past. It might seem like a more economical way to do it, but as has been shown above, getting a professional engraver in Japan to engrave a horimono on a blade is not an economical undertaking! If it were me, I'd get a new gendaito to do it on. As mentioned, there is also substantial difficulties buying the sword, finding the right engraver, successfully commissioning them to do it, waiting until they are able to get it done, then having it shipped out of Japan. This will probably entail multiple journeys to Japan unless you put it all into the hands of a dealer there. Still, I think it can result in a very worthwhile piece if you have the patience and the money!

[Bruce Pennington]

Jean gave the answer I was looking for.  It was done in the past, so your etiquette question is partially answered.  I think most of the push-back you're getting is because the majority of us at NMB collect to preserve history.  Making a change to a blade, today, is sort-of heretical, Ha!  I've done some refurbishing to a couple of my WWII gunto, but I will never sell them.  I intend (note to self, I should do this soon) to make note cards to the refurb'ed gunto so that when my wife or daughter sells them after my death, the new owner will have full disclosure.

[Bugyotsuji]

One aspect we have not covered is that horimono (with some talismanic benefit) can be inserted to displace or hide a mark on an already flawed blade, and make it look right as rain once more. A way of saving a blade.

[jt nesbitt]

All good points and thanks for the participation.

I sure would like to find someone on the NMB who has actually commissioned work and could describe the experience, along with some actual contacts within the traditional Japanese craft community.  -- JT

[SteveM]

I've never done it myself, so this may just add to the noise, but I found a sword engraver on Twitter (in Japanese). He doesn't leave any contacting info, but you might try contacting him through Twitter. 

 

An engraving will take several weeks to complete, more or less depending on the complexity. There may also be a waiting time. so I think its going to take many weeks to get a sword engraved and then get the export permission. Also, I also believe that it would better to do this with a gendaitō. I really do feel that putting a vanity engraving on an old sword is a kind of vandalism. 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

JT, I had a quick chat with the Osafune blade engraver this evening. He said that he has just sent off his entry, a lovely tsuba (sadly didn't make the deadline with his horimono this time, though) and is now clearing the decks of other things, so he personally would not be able to take on a new project until mid-summer.

 

It seems the last engraver in the Tokyo area is no longer working.(?)

 

He asked me about the area the blade is from, and the proposed horimono.  He does not like to work on old pre-Meiji blades, but happier to work on more modern ones as the material is generally more reliable, consistent internally.

 

He suggests contacting in advance, and if you do visit he would be more than happy to look at your blade and discuss possibilies with you, as long as someone like Tumi from the Osafune Sword Museum is there to lend a hand. Naturally I offered to help too when I can.

[Baba Yaga]

23 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

 

 

It seems the last engraver in the Tokyo area is no longer working.(?)

 

 

 

That should tell the logical person something. 

[jt nesbitt]

Piers-

 Wow! straight to the source! I am still in the early stages of planning this trip so nothing is set in stone, no steel has been bought.

Is "Tumi" of the Osafune Museum some kind of business manager? Is there contact info for a specific facilitator that I could have access to? How do I actually get into this network? Thank You!!  --- JT

[Bugyotsuji]

Tumi is from the UK and works in the curator's office at the Osafune Sword Museum. He's a member of the UK Token Society and recently joined the Okayama branch of the NBTHK. I've sent him a preliminary message to tell him about you.

[jt nesbitt]

For group consideration on the topic - Here is a Gassan blade made in 1867 with a horimono engraved in 1967...

A Shinshinto katana with ato-bori horimono done in "modern" times. I think that it looks amazing. -- JT

https://www.aoijapan...iou-3-nen-8-gatsuhi/