for fun: "expert fools" in auction houses

[YOJIMBO]

lately I have been observing the stupidity of "wannabe experts", so this thread will be about them. they just copy some text with foreign words and put it there because they think that the customers are of course even more stupid.

[YOJIMBO]

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/Japanese-samurai-armored-helmet-kabuto-sengoku-era-681-c-c564314bcf?objectID=180482673&algIndex=upcoming_lots_prod&queryID=cd0e0e194d5a9df48454da607a797385

[YOJIMBO]

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-yasurime-menpo-9874566a99

[YOJIMBO]

and there's another one, this time specifically identified

 

 

[dimitri]

I think that the expert's photo judgment is just to recognize a real from a fake. After if I have understood the system on the estimates of the expert, it is above all the seller who gives his price with a reservation price more or less distant from this estimate. I had fun on some pro sellers to find the items offered on their web pages and the reserve price is often the selling price on their websites.

[dimitri]

I think bought by the same person who sells and who wants to make a good profit.

[Luc T]

Ototsugu, a fine craftsman, worked for Kurosawa in the 1970-1980s

[YOJIMBO]

43 minutes ago, Luc T said:

Ototsugu, a fine craftsman, worked for Kurosawa in the 1970-1980s

I just wanted to explain to DIMITRI that he didn't know what it was about. Thanks

[dimitri]

It is sure that on the pieces of armor I am not too competent. It was just to answer you with regard to Catawiki and on the more or less dubious auctions of the objects. I'm not saying they're all bad. What I do not understand is when I type the full name which is written I come across the previous auction which is much lower level estimate, that's why I explained what I had discovered with professional sellers. After if I did not understand for the named expert, thank you for the clarification. Afterwards personally I prefer to ask now about the group of that I see some things that catch my eye, I have more confidence in the judgments of people here than elsewhere.

[YOJIMBO]

4 hours ago, dimitri said:

It is sure that on the pieces of armor I am not too competent. It was just to answer you with regard to Catawiki and on the more or less dubious auctions of the objects. I'm not saying they're all bad. What I do not understand is when I type the full name which is written I come across the previous auction which is much lower level estimate, that's why I explained what I had discovered with professional sellers. After if I did not understand for the named expert, thank you for the clarification. Afterwards personally I prefer to ask now about the group of that I see some things that catch my eye, I have more confidence in the judgments of people here than elsewhere.

so you still didn't understand it, so one more time: it's underlined in red: EDO PERIOD, Luc wrote: ............ READ!

[dimitri]

37 minutes ago, YOJIMBO said:

donc tu n'as toujours pas compris, alors encore une fois : c'est souligné en rouge : EDO PERIOD, Luc a écrit : ............ LIRE !

If I understand correctly, instead of saying more or less Edo period (beginning, middle or end...), they date in centuries or era "the name where my finger fell in a book"... I had stayed focused on the estimate. I apologize. I understand quickly but it takes a long time to explain. If that's what I understand. 
SORRY YOJIMBO, I don't want you to get angry, I'm trying to understand my mistake.

[YOJIMBO]

39 minutes ago, dimitri said:

calm down, I'm not angry. Thing is, it's not the edo period, it's the late showa, which makes a hell of a difference. and the "expert" will sanctify it.

[dimitri]

I'm calm, it was to relax. it's very stupid, especially for Sabbah whom I know a little because he is very good at polishing the blade.
Hence also my remark on the fact that now I ask here before any purchase.
Excuse me again.

[Alainalain]

It's not just Sabbha.
on this sale, expertised by PORTIER, i acquired an excellent Kawari (bought from kinokuniya in 2000) with Menpo.

but the menpo had a bronze nose!!!!
In fact I hadn't seen the lot before the sale and they accepted to refund me for the mask, but less knowledgeable buyers got screwed. These "experts" are really borderline

[dimitri]

It's a shame, in the end we won't be who to believe on sales.

[YOJIMBO]

On 6/12/2023 at 7:51 AM, Luc T said:

Ototsugu, a fine craftsman, worked for Kurosawa in the 1970-1980s

Luc, maybe you can explain it to this expert when he is at the next event ( Japan Art Expo 2023, 3-4 June)or somewhere else  , he is realy shame 

[Luc T]

3 hours ago, YOJIMBO said:

Luc, maybe you can explain it to this expert when he is at the next event ( Japan Art Expo 2023, 3-4 June)or somewhere else  , he is realy shame 

I met Patrice Sabbah yes.  He was there as a dealer.

[YOJIMBO]

again expert scum + seller same 

middle edo - myochin  

 

[uwe]

He has glasses….he must be an expert 🤓

[Sabbah]

hello to all the well-advised and above all very courageous connoisseurs who do not dare to come and talk to me directly. First of all, I am open to any criticism when it is constructive. I also want to tell you that on the site I do not do any expertise, I only remove the objects which are coarse fakes but for this kind of mempo it is very difficult on photo to determine the copies of the originals especially when they look like real ones. the descriptions only engage the sellers. I have no power to modify them. If you find any errors I would be happy to remove them from the sale. my email is available on my website or you can contact me on messenger. do not hesitate to come and talk to me, I would be happy to answer you or explain to you the operation of the site that you are accusing.

kind regards 

patrice sabbah

[Alex A]

As a neutral on the topic of armour that knows nothing really.

 

I find the level of some fakes so impressive that i wonder how you guys can ever tell the difference, I'm not talking obvious fakes. Then on top of that there are antique that are restored to the point where its seems hard to tell the difference

 

To such an extent my enthusiasm for the subject as gone from 100% to zero and now have little interest in purchasing anything armour related.

 

Seems a lot of disagreements over certain aspects.

 

Anyways, just thoughts from an interested reader.

 

 

[Luc T]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:25 AM, Alex A said:

As a neutral on the topic of armour that knows nothing really.

 

I find the level of some fakes so impressive that i wonder how you guys can ever tell the difference, I'm not talking obvious fakes. Then on top of that there are antique that are restored to the point where its seems hard to tell the difference

 

To such an extent my enthusiasm for the subject as gone from 100% to zero and now have little interest in purchasing anything armour related.

 

Seems a lot of disagreements over certain aspects.

 

Anyways, just thoughts from an interested reader.

 

 

Alex, the armor world is fascinating.  But as every other valuable collectible, you have to inform before you spend big money.   Inform yourself before you decide to buy.   Golden rule:  if it is too good to be true, it probably isn’t true.

one more thing I want to say here.  The 62plate Saotome kabuto are underestimated.  They are hardly to copy. And they are wonderful pieces of art.  Quite safe to buy.

[YOJIMBO]

On 12. 8. 2023 at 9:13, Sabbah said:

zdravím všechny rady a především velmi odvážné fajnšmekry, kteří si netroufají přijít a popovídat si přímo se mnou. Za prvé, jsem otevřený jakékoli kritice, pokud je konstruktivní. Chci vám také říci, že na webu nedělám žádné odborné znalosti, pouze odstraňuji objekty, které jsou hrubé padělky, ale pro tento druh mempa je velmi obtížné na fotografii určit kopie originálů, zejména když vypadají jako skutečných. popisy se týkají pouze prodejců. Nemám sílu je upravovat. Pokud najdete nějaké chyby, rád je odstraním z prodeje. můj email je dostupný na mém webu nebo mě můžete kontaktovat na messengeru. neváhejte a přijďte si se mnou popovídat, rád vám odpovím nebo vysvětlím fungování stránek, které obviňujete.

S přátelským pozdravem 

patrice sabbah

first of all there is no need to discuss anything with you. the fact that you repeatedly approve the same mempo (which almost every amateur knows), although you have been warned what it is, speaks for itself. I've had a few things on catawiki for sale so I'm familiar with the approval process. and you lie again You can write to the seller and they will adjust the description or exclude the item. Namely, if my photos were allegedly not of good quality, I received a message from catawiki: that the photo must be bigger, closer, sharper, without a flash, etc., or my objesct will not be approved. So if you make excuses for bad photos, you are lying again.On the other hand, you are labeling legitimate things as fakes. I also believe that there is various manipulation going on there. And finally, above your price estimates is ridiculous. So your " EXPERT " level is a shame.

[waki180270]

Dear sir, whom I don't know,
If you're so caring, why didn't you report the problem to me before? In addition, I still want to point out to you that I look at about 300 objects on a screen per week and point out an error to you. It can happen. I am just a human being. That said, I not being aware of the fact that it is a copy, and not having proof of it, I could not refuse the object according to the description which was made by the seller. I therefore thank you, instead of pouring out your harmful and not at all constructive venom, for pointing out an error when you see one, I would be happy to correct it or withdraw the object from sale.

[Brian]

Why create a new account? You just posted from the Sabbah one?
Please advise if I can merge them. Would be good if our members could assist with vetting items, and please feel free to make use of the forum if there is any doubt. We aren't foolproof, but numbers of views assists with calls like this.
Let's try and assist and improve things before we straight out condemn people?

[uwe]

Patrice,

I admit that it can be very difficult at times to judge an item only by pictures (often even not very meaningful pictures as well). Especially when you have to do it under time pressure…

We all know the story of a well known collector (and expert in the field; at least in my eyes) pinned on top of the katchū section 😉

I guess the main problem is the “expert label” in (more or less) obvious cases.

So, if we can be of any help, let us know….

Disclaimer: I’m not an expert, but we can share opinions!

 

[YOJIMBO]

 

so the third time   still myochin 18 century 

 

https://www.catawiki...n-Japan-18th-century

[uwe]

This time another “expert” enters the game!

But what do you complaining, it’s absolutely worth the current bid ($6,-)….🤓

[Jussi Ekholm]

I would think for the latest item it would be Kyodai Originals: https://kyodaioriginals.nl/ who have made the description as they are sellers of the item.

[uwe]

You are right Jussi! 
The descriptions of both armors on their site bearing also some failures and misinterpretations, but not so off as at the menpō.