Worth $10?

[DDangler]

Picked this up at an estate sale. No idea what it is, it looks old. Blade built like my Nagamitsu just smaller and shorter. Tsuka looks odd. Some rope wrapping I don’t believe is original. I’m afraid to take it off to get to a signature on the blade though, in case it is supposed to be there. 
 

All help and knowledge is appreciated. Thanks in advance gentlemen!!

[Stephen]

Does it have saya?

String is not original probably added by a GI they had the whole thing about how they did string art.

Difficult decision to cut off or not find out if it has to mei.

Real tanto AFAICT

 

 

Nice find either way

[Matsunoki]

Imo underneath the rust and red paint is a genuine old Samurai wakizashi probably repurposed to use on a farm or similar. It has a double habaki and on the fuchi we can see fish, possibly inlaid. The red twine binding is not Japanese and has been added somewhere sometime.  Even looks like we can see a hamon. Hmmm….if it were mine I’d be thinking about cutting all the twine off……but don’t do that yet……see what others say. Meantime oil the blade.

[Stephen]

How long is it. Tip to habaki?

It might be a walk..

[DDangler]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Does it have saya?

String is not original probably added by a GI they had the whole thing about how they did string art.

Difficult decision to cut off or not find out if it has to mei.

Real tanto AFAICT

 

 

Nice find either way

I don’t know what Saya is. I’m still a neophyte when it comes to Nihonto. 

[Stephen]

I didn't notice it until Colin said something about fuchi.

I had to blowing up to see it does the string have different spaced tubes I can't tell what what they are

[Stephen]

1 minute ago, DDangler said:

I don’t know what Saya is. I’m still a neophyte when it comes to Nihonto. 

Sheath 

[DDangler]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

How long is it. Tip to habaki?

It might be a walk.. 😄

It is right about 20” from tip to end. 

[DDangler]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Sheath 

No Saya, unfortunately. 

[DDangler]

6 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I didn't notice it until Colin said something about fuchi.

I had to blowing up to see it does the string have different spaced tubes I can't tell what what they are

The string has some (what appears to be brass) tubing spaced throughout. 

[Stephen]

The Nagasaki (blade length)

Is 13.5".

The tubing gives a bit more of pause to cutting it off.

Something I haven't seen before an I'm so old I remember when the Dead Sea was sick.

[Matsunoki]

Tubing may be joint clips to provide sufficient length?

[Stephen]

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/glossary.htm

 

 

Terminology you can brush up on

[DDangler]

4 minutes ago, Stephen said:

The Nagasaki (blade length)

Is 13.5".

The tubing gives a bit more of pause to cutting it off.

Something I haven't seen before an I'm so old I remember when the Dead Sea was sick.

13 1/4” to be close to exact. If we are talking about the same measurement. 

[DDangler]

3 minutes ago, Stephen said:

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/glossary.htm

 

 

Terminology you can brush up on

Thank you for this!! I can’t guarantee I will remember some of it, let alone all of it. For the record, I have problems with short term and some long term memory, I’m not just being a lazy _____.  

[ROKUJURO]

Joel,

the purchase price is o.k., but you bought yourself cleaning work for $ 250.--, not even thinking of a real restoration by a Japanese expert. But it might be an interesting journey to see what hides under the paint!

You may cut away the string and use acetone to remove the paint from the metal parts, as there is no danger to cause damage. The tang may show a signature or even a date, so be very careful not to damage any extant patina.

 

The best way would be to find a knowlegeable NMB member near you and let him help you. I know that Ray Singer is in Florida.

[DDangler]

2 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Joel,

the purchase price is o.k., but you bought yourself cleaning work for $ 250.--, not even thinking of a real restoration by a Japanese expert. But it might be an interesting journey to see what hides under the paint!

You may cut away the string and use acetone to remove the paint from the metal parts, as there is no danger to cause damage. The tang may show a signature or even a date, so be very careful not to damage any extant patina.

 

The best way would be to find a knowlegeable NMB member near you and let him help you. I know that Ray Singer is in Florida.

Thank you for the reply and the insight!!

 

Question is, do I just leave it as is in my collection (my collection is 99% military Korean War and prior) in case it is some trench art from an American GI? Or do I cut the rope off, clean the paint off, spend $250 to have it restored and it’s now lost it’s character and soul only to be worth $300?

[Mark]

you could start by trying to "nudge" the string a bit and see if you can find the mekugi and if so try and remove it....... another option, although i am hesitant to mention in, is the secure the blade in a  vice (wood on each side) and tap the tsuba using a block of wood and hammer. You might be able to break the mekugi and slide the handle off and then remove the parts of mekugi from the tsuka. 

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, DDangler said:

13 1/4” to be close to exact. If we are talking about the same measurement. 

I eyeballed it we measure is from very tip to the notch on the mune where  it fits the habaki. It's not worthy of restoration unless it's got a really famous name you don't have to spend $250 to find out where you want to go.

I'll give you $20 for it wink.

[DDangler]

6 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I eyeballed it we measure is from very tip to the notch on the mune where  it fits the habaki. It's not worthy of restoration unless it's got a really famous name you don't have to spend $250 to find out where you want to go.

I'll give you $20 for it wink.

Good to know, at this point I most likely won’t even worry about getting to the mei. Will just clean and oil it and display it with other items I’ve collected. I doubt I will even try to remove the red paint. I feel like someone put it in there for a reason. 

[Ooitame]

I would say given the interesting wrap, tha painted items, possible older blade, during WWII. I would highly suggest removing the tsuka and habaki, for a better eval.

[DDangler]

Alright, I tried the smacking it with a mallet method. It worked and I’ve kept the rope wrapping intact. I can’t find a Mei. It’s got some rust issues. It’s certainly old. Tsuba is funky and very archaic looking compared to the one on my Nagamitsu. 

[Larason2]

It's a good deal no matter what, but the blade is in pretty rough shape. With a $2000 polish it would look quite presentable, but I don't think it will be worth that much if you polish it!  I would just oil it and keep it in your collection. It has some value as an authentic Japanese blade with military history.

[DDangler]

7 hours ago, Larason2 said:

It's a good deal no matter what, but the blade is in pretty rough shape. With a $2000 polish it would look quite presentable, but I don't think it will be worth that much if you polish it!  I would just oil it and keep it in your collection. It has some value as an authentic Japanese blade with military history.

Thank you for the insight. 
 

And thank you to all that have given me insight throughout this thread. 
 

I’ve got a few questions. 
 

Without a Mei or star stamp, what makes the general consensus believe this has military provenance? 
 

Is there any way to determine its age? 

[Brian]

There is nothing there that suggests any military provenance.
It was obviously taken as a souvenir by a soldier who did the wrapping most likely. But nothing about this is military.
Lightly tap the active rust with a rubber mallet to get rid of the worst of it. Lots of oil. Over time it will look a lot better. Use nothing abrasive.
Not a terrible find at all.

[DDangler]

15 minutes ago, Brian said:

There is nothing there that suggests any military provenance.
It was obviously taken as a souvenir by a soldier who did the wrapping most likely. But nothing about this is military.
Lightly tap the active rust with a rubber mallet to get rid of the worst of it. Lots of oil. Over time it will look a lot better. Use nothing abrasive.
Not a terrible find at all.

Thanks for the clarification Brian!

 

Any idea of age?

 

I presume it’s traditionally made?

 

Without a Mei is there anyway to narrow down who made it? 

[DDangler]

What kind of oil should I use to clean it?

[Geraint]

Dear Joel.

 

Just to add a little to what you already know, the habaki, (blade collar), is a two piece type which is slightly unusual and the seppa, (washers), look to be gold foiled, an expensive thing to do.  (The one on the tsuba is back to front).  There is a possibility that the habaki is also foiled, have a close look at the back edge.  You might be able to see it looking something like this.

,

 

 

Don't get excited, it's going to be low carat but it does suggest that this was a well mounted and well thought of sword in it's heyday.

 

Light oil and a clean cloth, quite a bit of dirt will come off so keep renewing the cloth.

 

Very un likely that anyone can tell you who made it in its current condition but it gets more interesting as you go along.

 

Enjoy!

 

All the best.

[DDangler]

24 minutes ago, Geraint said:

Dear Joel.

 

Just to add a little to what you already know, the habaki, (blade collar), is a two piece type which is slightly unusual and the seppa, (washers), look to be gold foiled, an expensive thing to do.  (The one on the tsuba is back to front).  There is a possibility that the habaki is also foiled, have a close look at the back edge.  You might be able to see it looking something like this.

,

 

 

Don't get excited, it's going to be low carat but it does suggest that this was a well mounted and well thought of sword in it's heyday.

 

Light oil and a clean cloth, quite a bit of dirt will come off so keep renewing the cloth.

 

Very un likely that anyone can tell you who made it in its current condition but it gets more interesting as you go along.

 

Enjoy!

 

All the best.

Foiling on the hilt and flowers by the fish too. 
 

I’ve gotten some of the paint off. 
 

Any kind of oil work on the blade? I feel like there would be a special oil. Lol

[Geraint]

Ah, so from these pictures the habaki is gilt rather than foiled.

 

There is a special oil which I like because it has a little clove oil in it and I always associate the smell with Japanese swords but any light oil will work perfectly well.

 

All the best.