Shinto Wakizashi - Hizen Kuni Mutsu Kami Tadayoshi. Please comment.

[Nihonto student]

2 hours ago, Bosco said:

Have a look at this two from the 8th generation of Tadayoshi, sold from Samurai Museum with NBTHK certification. Both mei 5 characters look tottaly different even it was signed by the same person. So saying a mei is gimei because of the signature is baloney. One could be made when he was young and one could be made when he was older ( or drunk , sick ... ). 

 

 

Dear Mean,

 

"probably" without knowing you said something correct, as you can see here https://www.hizento....i-8th-generation.php the first example you posted is the mei of Tadayoshi 8th in the first period of his career while the second example represents the mei in a later period, the evolution of the mei in the typology and design is a variable common to many other swordmakers but this does not mean that the evaluations are made randomly... there is a lot of study behind it.

 

In your other post Brian has already told you that Tadayoshi's is among the most forged signatures ever, some forgeries are extremely well made and therefore a lot of experience is needed to evaluate.

In this forum there are extremely competent people but I think I'm not wrong in telling you that no one (Also for professionalism issues) would bet their house on a signature by Tadayoshi without having at least seen the blade in his hand (We are talking about signature but obviously the work must be consistent with the characteristics of the swordsmith) or at least the signature must be a CLEAR fake.

 

Anyway since this is a forum everyone can express their opinion based on their experience and not only regarding the mei, knowing the market general assessments can be made such as the origin of the blade, if the blade comes from Japan and is without NBTHK certificate it is 99% gimei because there is no reason for a seller in Japan not to certify it since it would acquire greater value and give greater security to the buyer...this is a general rule and if we talk about a big name like Tadayoshi it must be a mantra.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Giordy

[2devnul]

On 5/20/2024 at 6:44 PM, Jacques D. said:

Definitely not a konuka hada

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50138-kenjo-mei-tadayoshi/

I bet you would comment the same here, if it wasn't for NBTHK. 

 

PS. Maybe I'm blind, but Hada on that papered one looks very similar to the one I have. The only reasonable 'Gimei' argument for me is lack of papers while it came from Japan. Mei/Sugata/Hamon/Hada, they DO LOOK legit for me. 

[Nihonto student]

45 minutes ago, 2devnul said:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50138-kenjo-mei-tadayoshi/

I bet you would comment the same here, if it wasn't for NBTHK. 

 

PS. Maybe I'm blind, but Hada on that papered one looks very similar to the one I have. The only reasonable 'Gimei' argument for me is lack of papers while it came from Japan. Mei/Sugata/Hamon/Hada, they DO LOOK legit for me. 

Adam,

maybe I didn't understand the point, if you're asking me if I would spend that amount of money on a blade without paper the answer is definitely no, and yes I would have expressed the same opinion if the blade in question hadn't had the paper while still immediately recognizing that the the work is undoubtedly of excellent quality.

 

Compared to your blade (Leaving aside the issue of the lack of certificate coming from Japan) I can express my opinion (Which however counts zero):
I think your blade has some qualities and the signature isn't that bad but if I compare it with the one on sale the perception I have of the activity seems totally different, especially regards Jinie the one on sale definitely seems on another level but I admit that (In addition to the author's lack of knowledge) my reading may be distorted by the difference in the state of polishing of the two blades and by the photos.

 

For me everyone is free to believe what they want, someone believes that their Chinese fake is worth 80,000,000 millions... I personally tend to have a very objective approach and for me the market has its unwritten rules... also especially for economic evaluation having the certificate also means having traceability to establish a value consistent with the work, establishing a value is already a complex thing... without any reference that gives a minimum of certainty everything becomes very questionable.

 

Just my 2 cent.

 

All the best,

 

Giordy

 

 

[Bosco]

18 hours ago, Nihonto student said:

Dear Mean,

 

"probably" without knowing you said something correct, as you can see here https://www.hizento....i-8th-generation.php the first example you posted is the mei of Tadayoshi 8th in the first period of his career while the second example represents the mei in a later period, the evolution of the mei in the typology and design is a variable common to many other swordmakers but this does not mean that the evaluations are made randomly... there is a lot of study behind it.

 

In your other post Brian has already told you that Tadayoshi's is among the most forged signatures ever, some forgeries are extremely well made and therefore a lot of experience is needed to evaluate.

In this forum there are extremely competent people but I think I'm not wrong in telling you that no one (Also for professionalism issues) would bet their house on a signature by Tadayoshi without having at least seen the blade in his hand (We are talking about signature but obviously the work must be consistent with the characteristics of the swordsmith) or at least the signature must be a CLEAR fake.

 

Anyway since this is a forum everyone can express their opinion based on their experience and not only regarding the mei, knowing the market general assessments can be made such as the origin of the blade, if the blade comes from Japan and is without NBTHK certificate it is 99% gimei because there is no reason for a seller in Japan not to certify it since it would acquire greater value and give greater security to the buyer...this is a general rule and if we talk about a big name like Tadayoshi it must be a mantra.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Giordy

So you telling me Tozando in Kyoto selling fake Nihonto to me ?. Because I bought a Nihonto off him with signature on the Mei and doesn't have any certificate. Stop your baloney, many sword from Aoi Art and other dealers doens't have certificate as well. 

[Bosco]

18 hours ago, 2devnul said:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50138-kenjo-mei-tadayoshi/

I bet you would comment the same here, if it wasn't for NBTHK. 

 

PS. Maybe I'm blind, but Hada on that papered one looks very similar to the one I have. The only reasonable 'Gimei' argument for me is lack of papers while it came from Japan. Mei/Sugata/Hamon/Hada, they DO LOOK legit for me. 

Stop listening to them, many dealer in Japan including the big and trusted one selling Nihonto without certificate even they have signature on it. Because they only have few spots available so they will send in the most valuable one. So the lower value one can wait or sell to customer.

[Lewis B]

22 hours ago, Bosco said:

Have a look at this two from the 8th generation of Tadayoshi, sold from Samurai Museum with NBTHK certification. Both mei 5 characters look tottaly different even it was signed by the same person. So saying a mei is gimei because of the signature is baloney. One could be made when he was young and one could be made when he was older ( or drunk , sick ... ). 

Doesn't the position of the lower mukugi-ana strike you as suspicious in the top picture?

[Bosco]

8 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Doesn't the position of the lower mukugi-ana strike you as suspicious in the top picture?

What do you mean by suspicious ?. Just by looking at Mei I guarantee 100% no one can tell its Real or Fake. I sent the Mei itself to Hizento and he said it's fake without looking at anything else but just the Mei. 

[Lewis B]

The lower mekugi-ana if the original one suggests the blade has been shortened at some point after it was made? The position of the Mei would not be consistent with a much longer blade.

[PNSSHOGUN]

27 minutes ago, Bosco said:

Stop listening to them, many dealer in Japan including the big and trusted one selling Nihonto without certificate even they have signature on it. Because they only have few spots available so they will send in the most valuable one. So the lower value one can wait or sell to customer.

Careful, they will be selling you Nihonbashi bridge next.

[Bosco]

23 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Careful, they will be selling you Nihonbashi bridge next.

sure

[Nihonto student]

3 minutes ago, Bosco said:

So you telling me Tozando in Kyoto selling fake Nihonto to me ?. Because I bought a Nihonto off him with signature on the Mei and doesn't have any certificate. Stop your baloney, many sword from Aoi Art and other dealers doens't have certificate as well. 

 

Minh,

 

Gimei doesn't mean that the blade is fake... it means that the signature is fake... I only saw the nakago of your blade but I can tell you that it is definitely an original Japanese blade, no doubt about that...

it is also true that AOI sells blades without certificate but in that case it always indicates "Signature not guaranteed" or sometimes Tsuruta San exposes himself by saying that the blade will certainly obtain certification if subjected to shinsa other times he even points out that the signature is false but if will be removed, the blade will obtain certification (The latter is an operation that I honestly do not agree with ethically but it is part of the game).

I won't expose myself about your signature (My idea already transpires from previous posts), I invite you however to check what the author's rough quotations are and compare them with the price you paid to get an idea, starting from the fact that a dealer in Japan in 99% of cases knows exactly what he is selling.

 

To conclude, I have nothing to gain by judging your blade or that of Adam Gimei or not (apart from the fact that my evaluation counts for nothing), and furthermore I have nothing against Gimei blades in general because a false signature does not mean automatically that the quality of the blade is poor.

I try to make you understand that the problem is the economic point of view... if tomorrow you want to resell that blade and you tell me Giordy I'm sure it's an original Tadayoshi so my request is X my reasonable answer (Like many others) would be ok send it to Japan and if it is certified I will buy it and all the expenses for the certification will be at my expense (Obviously this presupposes that the blade is of interest to me and that I can afford the requested amount).

 

On the one hand I would hope that both you and Adam would submit your blade to Shinsa because in this way the forum could have an effective feedback and believe me I would be very happy if both blades will be certified because it would mean I learned something new, but from my point of view however there are many alarm bells I would tend to advise against it because the risk would increase the economic loss.

 

 

Giordy

[Nihonto student]

25 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

The lower mekugi-ana if the original one suggests the blade has been shortened at some point after it was made? The position of the Mei would not be consistent with a much longer blade.

Hi Lewis, 

 

in this case the blade is not suriage the last ana is a shinobi ana.

 

 

[Brian]

Where does this constant assumption come from that gimei blades are "fake"?
People really need to understand that fake signatures are common, done sometimes at the time of manufacture, and was an accepted and commonplace occurrence in the history of Japanese swords. The FAQ above has a write-up on it. There are thought to be more false signatures on swords than real ones. But the swords are still genuine.
It's something you live with if you collect Nihonto.
Also, Roger (Hizento) is one of the most qualified people when it comes to this school. He's literally written the book on the subject. If he says a mei is gimei, then there is a very likely chance that it is. I trust his opinion just slightly below a shinsa panel.

[Bosco]

21 minutes ago, Brian said:

Where does this constant assumption come from that gimei blades are "fake"?
People really need to understand that fake signatures are common, done sometimes at the time of manufacture, and was an accepted and commonplace occurrence in the history of Japanese swords. The FAQ above has a write-up on it. There are thought to be more false signatures on swords than real ones. But the swords are still genuine.
It's something you live with if you collect Nihonto.
Also, Roger (Hizento) is one of the most qualified people when it comes to this school. He's literally written the book on the subject. If he says a mei is gimei, then there is a very likely chance that it is. I trust his opinion just slightly below a shinsa panel.

Just because the mei was signed differently doesnt mean its gimei anyway. This is the point i'm trying to say. The artist could have signed it in a bad mood , drunk , sick or who knows. Unless its worth over 100k at least sword then I would try my best to prove its is from the artist.

[Nihonto student]

17 minutes ago, Brian said:

Where does this constant assumption come from that gimei blades are "fake"?
 

Personally Brian, I think that the main reason is the cultural model of reference with respect to art, there is a tendency to trivialize the approach of the Western world "a painting with a false signature is a fake" and consequently the quality of the work and the capabilities of the artist are not even considered... it's a fake and that's it... entering into another mentality of judgment is not a simple step, it presupposes a certain attitude.

[Brian]

25 minutes ago, Bosco said:

Just because the mei was signed differently doesnt mean its gimei anyway. This is the point i'm trying to say. The artist could have signed it in a bad mood , drunk , sick or who knows. Unless its worth over 100k at least sword then I would try my best to prove its is from the artist.

This isn't a new argument. And has been discussed many times. It doesn't come down to just "does the mei look different" There are a ton of factors that are taking into account. Such as stoke strength, direction, mei placement, kanji used, stroke count, patina, etc etc etc.
Your signature may vary over time. Maybe when you are ill or tired or in a rush. But you won't suddenly start signing your strokes from a different position, or leave out lines in your signature, or the angle you write at. Ask any signature authenticator who does sports signatures. That is all taken into account. It isn't just "does it look exactly the same" and expects can confidently tell you if the writing was by someone else. Also where the strokes paused or how fluent they are.
You can't just discount an opinion because a smith may have changed slightly. The data used is far more advanced than that.
And you also can't just take opinions from a forum either. They are given with the caveat that they are opinions. But when you get an opinion from someone who studies that smith or school, their advice has to take preference over internet theories.

[Alex A]

On a side note, there were smiths working at the Hizen forge that you have likely never heard of.

 

Came across a yari on Aoi a while ago, described as Hizen. It was signed Tadasada, worked along side the bigger names.

 

A nobody, Aoi described him as an apprentice

 

That wasn't Konuka hada either.

 

Point being, with such folks learning the trade and what not then there must be an array of swords knocking about made at the Hizen forge that come with ?????????

 

Many other reasons.

 

 

[2devnul]

@Jacques D.

 

Look, not a Konuka Hada, but papered Tadayoshi. Must be Gimei ... with papers. 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50138-kenjo-mei-tadayoshi/#comment-522109

 

PS. I will be looking for opportunity to send my sword for Shinsa. I had opportunity to show the blade in person to some collectors, and they all agreed that "it is a possible Mutsu Tadayoshi". I know that 1st and 3rd Tadayoshi were faked a lot (both are top10 Wazamono), I also understand it is hard to believe that sword came from Japan without papers, still ... 

 

Anyway, thank you all for contributing to the discussion. 

[Okan]

Since you asked for an opinion:

 

Mei looks ok(although not perfect), sword itself does not. (I'm not saying it's a bad sword, it's just not Tadayoshi..I've seen quite a few) 

 

I wouldn't waste time/money to send it for shinsa as I'm %100 sure that it's been there already. (Japanese dealers are not idiots) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Id also be tempted leave it as my thoughts are they wont pass it if stands out as an oddball from the norm. Also points others have made.

 

Looks a real nice blade though, the hamon very much reminds me of an Hizen Tadakuni blade, as mentioned. 

 

This is the trouble with buying unpapered blades. One always owns it with questions and a demand for authentification. A lot of Mumei blades can have the same issues, even with papers. As in narrowing it down to one smith.

 

So long as you paid gimei money for it then i guess most here would be happy to own it.

 

Would suggest assuming gimei, look at the work and see if anything else fits better. See what else comes up.

 

Still, i cant get away from thinking its maybe a oddball Hizen with a ?

 

If you do send it to Shinsa then i hope you prove us doubters wrong but the odds are not in your favour. Maybe try NTHK if your going to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

[2devnul]

https://swordsofjapa...ai-tadayoshi-katana/

 

I know it is 8th gen. not 3rd. or even close. I just wanted to point out the lack of Konuka Hada that @Jacques D. was talking about. Or does later Hizen Tadayoshi has different attribution? 

 

Anyway, thanks all for your comments. That was a big topic for me and all replies are appreciated. I think we can close it until sword comes back from Shinsa with a verdict. 

 

Cheers!

[Jacques D.]

Quote

Look, not a Konuka Hada, but papered Tadayoshi. Must be Gimei ... with papers. 

Learn history of Shodai Tadayoshi...

Konuka hada is a variety of ko itame...