Shinto Wakizashi - Hizen Kuni Mutsu Kami Tadayoshi. Please comment.

[2devnul]

Hello everyone,

 

I'm new on the forum so nice to meet everyone.

I recently bought this wakizashi and would like to hear any comments about it from the experts. 

Nagasa = 45,5cm
Motohaba = 30 mm
Motokasane = 7,5 mm

 

Please check the photos, thank you. 

[Larason2]

It looks legit, I like the hamon. Smith was from the Edo period. It's hard to say much else without closer up views of the blade.

[David Flynn]

Does it have papers?   Polished blade without, usually infers Gimei.

 

[Larason2]

The signature looks like others from the same smith online, which suggests its not gimei (unless they're all gimei!)

[paulb]

The shape and the hamon are not typical for the smith. The finish on the nakago and the way the mei is cut also look a-typical. 

My first reaction is that I doubt it is legitimate. Mutsu no kami spent most of his short life (died when he was 50) making daimei for his father who outlived him. His works are rare and much sought after therefore a target for gimei.

For a more definitive answer the blade needs to be submitted to shinsa.

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

Thank you for the comments. 

 

On 6/2/2023 at 8:29 PM, Larason2 said:

It looks legit, I like the hamon. Smith was from the Edo period. It's hard to say much else without closer up views of the blade.

I'm attaching some pictures (in koshirae) and will take some more with close-up on the blade. 

 

 

On 6/3/2023 at 2:28 AM, David Flynn said:

Does it have papers?   Polished blade without, usually infers Gimei.

 

No papers, bought from dealer in Japan.

 

 

On 6/3/2023 at 8:20 AM, paulb said:

The shape and the hamon are not typical for the smith. The finish on the nakago and the way the mei is cut also look a-typical. 

My first reaction is that I doubt it is legitimate. Mutsu no kami spent most of his short life (died when he was 50) making daimei for his father who outlived him. His works are rare and much sought after therefore a target for gimei.

For a more definitive answer the blade needs to be submitted to shinsa.

Are you sure about hamon? Unless what I saw on Internet is fake I would say that this 3rd gen. Tadayoshi was the one that did that none-standard (to Tadayoshi family) hamons. Do you have any pictures or know anyone on forum that has this smith's blades? Thank you. 

 

 

[paulb]

Hi Adam,

You are right that the sandai Tadayoshi did produce more variation than some of the other smiths. Unfortunately when when viewing images on line such as those posted what you (I) are seeing has more to do with the polish than the actual hamon.

Things to look for within the hamon:

1. The nioiguchi should be bright and thick (belt like)

2. It should have a great deal of ko-nie running through it and activity within it.

3. The Sandai is said to have produced the very best konuka hada, rich in ji-nie and chickei.

Yes over the years I have been fortunate enough to have several sandai blades within my own collection at various time and also to have had the chance to study many others, although those were mostly daimei for his father. If you visit the articles section here or go to the resources section and look under swords on the token of Gb website you will see several articles I wrote describing some of these blades.

At risk of sounding like the old codger I am doubtless becoming unless the illustrations on the internet are of the Darcy brockbank/ Ted Tenold standard you cannot assess or compare blades in a meaningful way. This needs to be done in hand.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Coming from a Japanese dealer without papers does not give one high hopes for authenticity of the Mei.

[2devnul]

Hello, 

 

3 hours ago, paulb said:

Hi Adam,

You are right that the sandai Tadayoshi did produce more variation than some of the.....

 

Thank you very much Paul for sharing. This is really helpfull and I will be looking for that articles you mentioned. 

 

 

3 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Coming from a Japanese dealer without papers does not give one high hopes for authenticity of the Mei.

This makes sense. Why would dealer be selling it cheaper instead of going to shinsa and then requesting better bid with papers. Dealer expects it is Gimei. 

 

Any other comments are appreciated, thank you. 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hello Adam , I agree with all that Paul has said . To say that it looks like others by the same smith online is pretty unhelpful . You need to look at lots of genuine examples in books and to  compare the way each character is cut on the genuine ones with the way that the same character is cut on yours .For example if you look at the Kami character on genuine ones the " box" part of the character on the real ones is generally much longer and narrower than the  "box" part on yours . The absence of visible filemarks on your tang is also a worry . These mainline Tadayoshi nakago are always really well finished and you would expect to see yasurimei on the real thing .

Ian Brooks

[NewB]

There are NO Tadayoshi blades that have remained unpapered in an high bid auction (one slipped away few weeks back) in a sense. He had strange signing habits should I say.. the 2nd and 8th generation (if im not mistaken) remained the same stroking but this is an interesting gamble. I dislike there are no detailed photos of the hada.

 

 

Just to say that Tadayoshi isnt an eaay and quick right of the bat call. -  My published shodai had a temporary turn down by shinsa because - big names, big money, big responsibility. Thankfully they found it and I hope to have a reissued paper. Big win 🏆 

 

Eternally thankful to the ones that put the effort in it. Happy to declare shodai Tadayoshi shizu utsushi in my collection as a somewhat minor collector 😉

 

Y.J.U.

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

Thank you very much everyone for your valuable comments. I took a quick picture of hada (a very quick one, blade is covered in oil) but I will do my best to take some better pictures another time (I will need to remove oil for pictures and then re-apply it, so I need more time for this). 

 

Quick question, if it is a gimei, is there any chance or a way to tell when (how old is it) was it forged? Is it modern gimei or still an Edo blade (just made by imposter from back in the days)? 

 

Thanks!

[Brian]

Most gimei were done waaay back, usually at the time of manufacture or not far from it.
There are modern gimei, but I think the ones we see are proper antiques and it doesn't affect quality. Shinsa is the only way to really tell.

[Jacques D.]

Gimei at 99%, from memory the bottom horizontal stroke of the kanji Kuni is engraved the wrong way (must be engraved from right to left) 

[2devnul]

46 minutes ago, Brian said:

Most gimei were done waaay back, usually at the time of manufacture or not far from it.
There are modern gimei, but I think the ones we see are proper antiques and it doesn't affect quality. Shinsa is the only way to really tell.

IMHO it is still a nice blade, even if it isn't Tadayoshi's workshop. I hope it is antique blade. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Gimei at 99%, from memory the bottom horizontal stroke of the kanji Kuni is engraved the wrong way (must be engraved from right to left) 

Do you have by any chance a picture of mei that is confirmed/legit so I can compare it? 

 

Also, I would like to ask all of you about how much this sword can be worth? I'm not planning to sell at the moment, but just wonder if I didn't overpay. As most of you judge it's gimei, then let's focus on the price of a gimei (I'm losing hope that it is true Tadayoshi). How much it can be worth in current koshirae (Tsuba suppose to be from Edo period too, fuchi/kashira/menuki are modern Japanese manufacture). 

 

I will do my best to upload better hamon/hada pictures later today or tomorrow. 

 

Thank you again for all the help. Best regards! 

[paulb]

Adam,

Even if it is gimei (and all you have so far is opinion not necessarily fact) it doesn't mean it is a bad sword. If you think about it if someone is trying to get away with adding a highly reputable name to a blade it has got to be a reasonably good one. there would be no point in putting a famous name on a poorly made piece.

I don't think your blade is by Sandai Tadayoshi (but as said opinion) it does look to be a well made blade with good ko-itame hada with masame in the shinogi-ji. 

I am way too out of touch with current markets to offer a price guide. If the mei is gimei then it effectively becomes a mumei wakizashi as far as the market is concerned and these are generally less desirable (doesn't make it bad just less commercially attractive). There will always be a market for a sword in good polish, which this appears to be and with a reasonable koshirae.

 

[Alex A]

Hamon reminds me of Hizen Tadakuni.

[Alex A]

Got a bit of time and will explain a bit more.

 

Sometimes when you look at something it instantly reminds you have something you have seen in the past. Aoi art often describe Tadakuni blades as having an hamon that resembles clouds, which the blade above certainly does. The gunome is never consistent up and down along the blade.

 

Just speculating and doing this off the top of my head. Didn't Tadakuni and the smith above both work at the same place around Kanbun ?

 

So thinking a mixture of styles for one reason or another or a gimei on a Tadakuni blade.

 

A mention of Masame in the Shinogi-ji https://sword-auction.com/en/product/9317/as17267-刀肥前住播磨大掾藤原忠国初代第25回重要刀剣/

 

Noticed more recently a few Tadayoshi blades online with a mention of Masame in the Shinogi-ji

 

Another showing the hamon, you find Nie/nioi description for Tadakuni blades.

 https://nihontoantiques.com/project/hizen-katana-sword-fss-762/

 

Just thoughts, nothing factual, send it to Shinsa as mentioned to get the opinion of those with a lot more knowledge and data.

 

Anyways, looks a real nice blade!

[Mark S.]

Two mei’s to compare (on either side of mei in this thread).  Both are from the:

Hizento Handbook by Eguchi Soshin with translation by Gordon Robinson page 215 and attributed to the 3rd Gen Tadayoshi.  No judgements… just for reference.  
 

[Mark S.]

And one from Markus Sesko’s Shinto-meikan, page 318.

 

[Alex A]

The trouble with trying to identify blades by mei..................Its not like they are mass produced and punched on a machine.

 

Looks close to me, not like one you normally see that looks like to be done by a blind man on a galloping horse. 

 

Always the possibility of Dai-mei.

 

If it fails NBTHK, send it NTHK, you never know

 

 

 

 

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

Thank you again for all the comments. I did my best to take some close-up pictures (I didn't know it will be that difficult to capture anything with phone and my photography skills) so please have a look and comment. 

 

47 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Got a bit of time and will explain a bit more.

 

Thank you! Indeed that Hizen Tadakuni hamon looks very alike, but I expect that pattern can be visible also on other blades. However, interesting theory about 2 rival smiths, I like it

 

 

36 minutes ago, Mark S. said:

Two mei’s to compare (on either side of mei in this thread).  Both are from the:

 

This is perfect, thank you so much for your input and the pictures!

 

 

12 minutes ago, Alex A said:

If it fails NBTHK, send it NTHK, you never know

Thank you for advice. I need to read about this process as this is something new to me. Any risk (apart losing money) related? Like for example not getting back sword (sorry if it is a stupid question)? 

 

Pictures below, I apologize if they are poor quality or worthless, did my best. 

 

[Jacques D.]

From NBTHK revue 

 

 

[Alex A]

Hi Adam, true.

 

Though i mention due to Hizen school, just see it as a possible coincidence. 

 

Cheers.

 

Ps, the one thing i notice most on yours compared to the examples put on by Mark and Jacques

 

The lack of slant on the horizontal strokes.

 

Though il be honest, stating its gimei is beyond me just by looking at a mei. I don't have NBTHK resources. As said, its not one of the obvious examples that you may come across.

 

A short story. I once showed one of my Hizen blades to a well known expert and he remarked on the mei standing out as not being quite the norm. He was surprised to find out it was Papered by NBTHK.

 

So i guess if folks with his kind of knowledge get the odd surprise, then that gives it some perspective.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

50 minutes ago, Alex A said:

The trouble with trying to identify blades by mei................

 

 

 

 

For someone with a good experience, it's easier to judge a mei based on a photo, as oshigatas aren't made for dogs. On the other hand, even for an expert, it's impossible to judge a nioiguchi based on photos showing only the hadori. The same applies to hada, of which only the most visible grains are visible.

[Alex A]

See above Jacques.

[Larason2]

There have been cases discussed here where a blade was thought to be gimei, the mei removed, and then the blade papered to the smith of the mei that was removed. So, as has been repeated above, the best way to be sure is to send it off to shinsa. You probably won't lose your sword, but you will probably be without it for a long time! I'm not actually that aware of the process myself, but I would guess you need to find a reputable agent in Japan that can submit it on your behalf. Sending it to Japan is a challenge because of import laws, and sending it back is a challenge because of export laws, so it's not a quick process, and it's not cheap.

 

To be honest though, you still have a gorgeous sword, and I would say it's still pretty darn good quality in a good polish. If you love it, and don't care that much who made it, then just enjoy it. Good smiths sometimes made gimei if they needed the money, and a client only wanted a sword from the named smith. If they did that, as mentioned above, they used one of their best pieces. Your sword looks like it was still made by a very good smith. If you bought from a reputable sword dealer, you probably paid the gimei price. If they had thought it was actually mutsu no kami, they would have papered it, and gotten many times the price. If you tell us how much you paid, we can tell you if you paid the mutsu no kami price, or the gimei price!

 

If you can't enjoy it without having a bit more information about who really made it, then shinsa is the way to go. Be aware that even they make mistakes, and have made false positive and false negative calls in the past. They are still probably the gold standard for evaluating swords though (NBTHK).

 

If it were mine, I would just enjoy it! It's gorgeous and that hamon is exactly my taste. I also really like the style of your fittings and the ishime saya. You'd have to pay a lot of money to get a sword made that nice today. No matter what, this sword is a winner.

[Tom Darling]

I personally wouldn't send it for shinsa.  It is what it is, a very nice sword blade.  

[Alex A]

One thing forgot to mention yesterday.

 

For anyone with a papered signed sword by one of the well known Hizen smiths, compare the mei to online Papered examples that you find on sale/sold pages. Sometimes It can be enlightening seeing the subtle differences..

 

See so many over the years, far more than you will ever see in books. and also a lot clearer.

Nihonto books of the kind above need a modern update in one way or another. Also, being honest, by todays standards the images of mei are bad.

 

 

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

Once again thank you for all the comments. I really appreciate them and the discussion is very valuable to me. 

 

11 hours ago, Tom Darling said:

I personally wouldn't send it for shinsa.  It is what it is, a very nice sword blade.  

Thank you very much, I also think it is a very nice sword. Best in my collection to be honest. 

 

15 hours ago, Larason2 said:

If it were mine, I would just enjoy it! It's gorgeous and that hamon is exactly my taste. I also really like the style of your fittings and the ishime saya. You'd have to pay a lot of money to get a sword made that nice today. No matter what, this sword is a winner.

Thank you!

I think you have a point here. I'm not planning to resell it (boost price with papers) just wanted to know if it is really Tadayoshi or not. I guess it will stay a mystery, to bad that sword itself can't talk

As for koshirae, I love it too. I think this is the most beautiful koshirae from all swords in my collection. 

 

Another question, I was doing research about mon on the tsuba. It is similar to some clans/families mons, but not exactly the same. I asked the dealer and Shogo (famous Japanese culture youtuber) about it, they don't recognize it either. It is probably just decoration type of mon. 

Any comments or ideas? Any chance it is related to a clan? According to craftsman that made koshirae tsuba is from late Edo period. It isn't signed unfortunately. 

 

As for the sword price, I will keep it as a secret  (I don't want to look like a fool if I overpaid). However, any comments about estimated (out of the hat) price are welcome. 

 

Thank you very much to everyone for sharing the knowledge. I'm really happy to be a part of this forum/community!