Oil or water quenched type 98?

[John C]

Hello:

This is from an unstamped, undated type 98 (Ando Kanemoto). I know statistically this is probably oil quenched, however I do not have the experience to know for sure. My pictures are crap but I think I can see slight ashi and ko-nie. But I also think I can see slight dark streaks of oil quenching.

What do you guys think?

Regards,

John C.

p.s. Did I mention my pictures are crap? Best I could do.

[Brian]

I've had one very similar. I came to the conclusion it was a high end Showato. Basically one of those forged and folded, maybe even from good steel. But oil quenched or something else preventing it from being fully traditionally made. Not sure yours is the same, but it is indeed very similar. Nice looking blade.

[robinalexander]

John a couple more (crap) pictures on different angle might help.

Rob

 

PS....I've always found oil vs water hamon an interesting if not perplexing subject.

[John C]

3 hours ago, robinalexander said:

John a couple more (crap) pictures on different angle might help.

Thank you for the responses. A couple more. In one, I think I can see the tell-tale dark line of an oil quench but not in the other.

Hada seems dense as well, so I am leaning toward oil quenching.

John C.

[robinalexander]

Hi John, 

 

Nice hamon.   I would ere on the side of water quenched (probably a game call) .  While I cant make out any hada or nei, your hamon is more cloud-like and irregular and without the obvious tell tale darker spots that appear on oil quenched blades (as per example immediately below)... but pls don't 'put hour house' on my opinion.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi John, from the first picture it does look to be oil quenched with the distinctive dark spots in the tips of the Hamon. For reference this shape looks to be Yahazu Midare.

[robinalexander]

Just to clarify.  The first picture above is a random oil quenched I posted just to highlight the difference with John C's blade which are oriented/shown in bottom two pics.

[John C]

Thank you both for the information. A good polish would probably settle the question, however not on a showato. In the meantime, I'll look for a spot on the blade that may provide something definitive. 

Thank you all again,

John C.

[mdiddy]

In addition to the distinctive dark spots in the hamon that John mentions (to my eye, they are like lightbulbs at the top of gunome formations), you can also look for nie in and around the hamon. The showato rarely (if ever) show nie while a lot of the gendaito do. Even good gendaito done in nioi deki may show traces of nie where the hardening was inconsistent in a spot or two.

 

 

[John C]

On 5/23/2023 at 3:26 AM, robinalexander said:

John a couple more (crap) pictures on different angle might help.

Rob:

I was able to attach a loop to my crap camera and found some interesting areas. Looks like martensite crystals, however I don't know if that necessarily indicates water quenching. What do you think?

John C.

[mdiddy]

5 hours ago, John C said:

Looks like martensite crystals, however I don't know if that necessarily indicates water quenching

 

It's at least a positive sign. Look also to see if there is ji nie and any other hataraki in the hamon. Look also to see if/how the nie pools along the nioi guchi.

[mdiddy]

@John C Here is another fun fact about judging gendaito vs. showato. The character of the color of the nakago can also sometimes be an indicator. Gendaito sometimes shows a silvery finish on the nakago. Showato, maybe because of how that type of steel ages, will rarely feature a silvery finish and rather show a darker/dirtier type of brown or rust finish. Admittedly this observation is a little looser, but in searching though my archives I could not find any showato examples I had photographed that showed the silvery characteristics on the nakago of gendaito.

For example, here are a few nakago to consider: a gendaito by Nagamitsu, a gendaito by Seki Kanehide, and a showato by Seki Kanehiro (my photo settings were probably a little different for each sword, but I think this generally illustrates the gist)

 

 

[John C]

32 minutes ago, mdiddy said:

Gendaito sometimes shows a silvery finish on the nakago. Showato, maybe because of how that type of steel ages, will rarely feature a silvery finish and rather show a darker/dirtier type of brown or rust finish.

Agreed. Ohmura notes a "half-forge" sword suggesting it was made with "mill steel" using a power hammer (he uses the term air hammer), yet quenched in water. So not tamahagane steel, which may explain the nakago color and very tight hada, if this one falls in that category. 

John C.

 

[robinalexander]

John C. I feel this is in that grey band between oil and water and probably above my pay grade but at the end of the day, my opinion will more often than not take a back seat to that of John's i.e. likely oil quenched.  A wealth of experience there.

 

Regardless, very nice blade from what I can see.