Clarification of terminology.

[oneshot onekill]

I'm still what I would consider "New" at all of this but I'm learning a lot thanks to this forum and friends who are more knowledgeable. I recently acquired a "new to me" Nihonto. I love showing these to people and trying to do them justice. I showed this particular sword to a knife maker friend. He makes nice knives and pretty expensive knives. He will be the first to tell you he knows a lot about metallurgy and techniques for making blades. He was looking at my sword and I was explaining that I didn't think it was super old because the Hamon was pretty wavy and the curve of the blade was not very pronounced. (I'm guessing Kanbun from what I've seen and learned.) He looked at me and said that looks more like "Sanmai", not a Hamon. My brain froze because I didn't know what that meant. I know basically what sanmai means. He said, "If they fold one steel around another steel and then hammer it out to a blade where the center steel is harder it's Sanmai. Sanmai blades don't have a 'true' Hamon. It's just different where the steel in the center comes through." He said a "True Hamon" comes from clay tempering one piece of steel. So I'm a little confused. I have to say in the purest sense I think he's right about the construction method. But how do I reconcile the term "Hamon" and explain it properly?   

Here are pictures of what I call the "Hamon" on my blade

[DTM72]

I guess I'll go first. Hamon is the hardened edge that is the result of yaki-ire (water quenching) Sanmai is a construction technique than can create differing effects in the hada (grain pattern) and also the hamon, but is NOT the basis for hamon formation. please see the attached articles below for additional information. If you notice in the first article about hamon and jihada, blade construction is not mentioned...this is because it is not THE basis for hamon formation in and of itself.

 

https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/episode-7-hamon刃紋-＆-jihada地肌/

 

https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/laminate.htm

[oneshot onekill]

35 minutes ago, DTM72 said:

I guess I'll go first. Hamon is the hardened edge that is the result of yaki-ire (water quenching) Sanmai is a construction technique than can create differing effects in the hada (grain pattern) and also the hamon, but is NOT the basis for hamon formation. please see the attached articles below for additional information. If you notice in the first article about hamon and jihada, blade construction is not mentioned...this is because it is not THE basis for hamon formation in and of itself.

 

https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/episode-7-hamon刃紋-＆-jihada地肌/

 

https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/laminate.htm

I've read both of those and other information as well and that's what I thought. I tried to explain that the Hamon was there regardless of the blade construction but he insisted that was never the case with a Sanmai blade unless the blade was acid-etched. I'll just chalk it up to not arguing with an "expert" who isn't willing to listen.  

[ROKUJURO]

Dan,

the hardened edge area is the YAKIBA.

.....HAMON (hamon (刃文) (from Japanese, literally "edge pattern") is a visible effect created on the blade by the hardening process. The HAMON is the outline of the hardened zone (YAKIBA) which contains the cutting edge (HA). Blades made in this manner are known as differentially hardened, with a harder cutting edge than spine (mune)..... (copied from WIKIPEDIA).

SANMAI mean "three layers". A blade made by this technique can look somewhat close to a differentially hardened blade.

John, don't try to convince your friend when you don't feel completely competent in this field. Read good books (or here on the NMB) and give them to your friend thereafter. It is a wide field and we are all learning. 

[OceanoNox]

23 hours ago, oneshot onekill said:

He said, "If they fold one steel around another steel and then hammer it out to a blade where the center steel is harder it's Sanmai.

Like Rokujuro said, sanmai is three layers or three plates, so your friend is wrong. Sanmai is usually two softer steel plates surrounding a hard steel plate. When it's finished, the hard steel plate should peek out and is the edge. What your friend described is called kobuse, where one steel wraps around another (a bit like a taco).

I would say that a sanmai would look closer to suguha than what you have.

 

23 hours ago, oneshot onekill said:

He said a "True Hamon" comes from clay tempering one piece of steel.

Very rapid cooling (in water or oil) to harden the steel is "quenching". This forms the martensite that is wanted to have a very hard edge. The tempering is a low temperature heating to remove some of the brittleness of the as-quenched steel.

[DTM72]

20 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Dan,

the hardened edge area is the YAKIBA.

.....HAMON (hamon (刃文) (from Japanese, literally "edge pattern") is a visible effect created on the blade by the hardening process. The HAMON is the outline of the hardened zone (YAKIBA) which contains the cutting edge (HA). Blades made in this manner are known as differentially hardened, with a harder cutting edge than spine (mune)..... (copied from WIKIPEDIA).

SANMAI mean "three layers". A blade made by this technique can look somewhat close to a differentially hardened blade.

John, don't try to convince your friend when you don't feel completely competent in this field. Read good books (or here on the NMB) and give them to your friend thereafter. It is a wide field and we are all learning. 

Jean,

 

I am aware of all the terms, but was trying to keep it simple without causing confusion on the original posters' part.

[Baba Yaga]

"He looked at me and said that looks more like "Sanmai", not a Hamon. My brain froze because I didn't know what that meant. I know basically what sanmai means. He said, "If they fold one steel around another steel and then hammer it out to a blade where the center steel is harder it's Sanmai. Sanmai blades don't have a 'true' Hamon."

 

 

Looks like the "friend" watched a YouTub video which some self-proclaimed expert made Nihonto ( Making the Samurai Sword ) .   

It's really not his fault clinging to poor information. 

[ROKUJURO]

48 minutes ago, DTM72 said:

....I am aware of all the terms, but was trying to keep it simple without causing confusion on the original posters' part.

Dan,

keeping it simple is always good, but then it should be correct and cause no confusion.

[oneshot onekill]

Yes... I need "simple" because I am so much a Newbie. When I said "He said a "True Hamon" comes from clay tempering one piece of steel." I meant to add "quenching" because he did say quenching was what brought out the difference.