Concerns as to if this is a Gimei

[Nick m]

All

 

This week end I acquired what I believe to be a WW2 Era Gutno, while helping at a community clean up (literally saved from a dumpster). 

 

The Saya was wood with black (ray skin?). The Semegane and Ishizuke were rusted, so I believe them to be steel. The Ahsi, Obi-tori and Koiguchi were missing. 

 

The only portion of the actual sword was the blade there was no handle and there is rust on the blade.

 

My question to the experts here is: the Mei authentic or did someone alter it?

 

I find that when I enlarged the pictures portions of the Kanji look crisper when compared to the whole of the Kanji. (maybe lighting or shadow)  

 

I will post further pictures once the camera is charged tonight or tomorrow.

 

I will thank you all for any assistance you can provide.

 

V/r

Nick

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Nick,

The mei reads Fujiwara Noriyuki. Not a blade from WWII; rather an older blade and likely Bungo Takada School.

Grey

[Nick m]

Sir, 

 

Thank you for your reply.  I will post some follow up pictures tonight of the entire blade and saya.  And to think this almost wound up in a dumpster if not for a little voice saying to put it a side. 

[Nick m]

Attached are some additional pictures of the blade and saya in the condition I found them 

[Nick m]

[Nick m]

[Nick m]

[Nick m]

[Brian]

Well It's real and saved now. well done. Gimei or not, it's real, and antique and probably will look a lot better after oil and wiping many times. Nice!

[Nick m]

Brian,

 

Thank you for your kind words.  I have found significant information posted here by other esteemed members as to the care of this sword.     

 

I have also learned that there is traditional responsibilities that come with being in possession of such an item.  I use the term possession, as like my responsibility towards to the indigenous  family pipe (Mohawk)  I carry,  I do not consider myself an “owner” of this sword, but more of a custodian along its journey. 

 

Thus, I intend to restore it back to health or as close to health as I can and display it alongside my issued 1865 pattern Cavalry Saber from my military service time. 

 

V/R

Nick

Edited May 23, 2023 by Nick m
Additional thought and clarifications

[Nick m]

(If this wrong forum please move) 

 

Ok today I did a little research on here and some measurements on my recent acquisition and I have found so far that the Mune is Ihori (low) and the Nagasa is 23.5 in (59.69 cm) .

 

With the Nagasa measuring under 60 cm that would make this a Wakizashi? 

Based upon Grey's translation of the Mei as being Fujiwara Noriyuki, in which multiple generations used this Mei between 1661-1783, that would make this a Shinto (New Sword) 

 

I have concluded that being this sword came to me in a WW2 Saya, that I will be acquiring the fittings and mounts to coincide with the Saya time period. With the cost to acquire vintage fittings and mounts my wife will probably kill me when I am done but guess in for a penny in for a pound.

 

As this is all new to me, I am sure I will be back with more questions or request for opinions from the group.

 

V/R

Nick 

[John C]

1 hour ago, Nick m said:

With the Nagasa measuring under 60 cm that would make this a Wakizashi? 

Nick:

The general rule is 0-1 shaku (about 12 inches) is a tanto; 1-2 shaku (12-24 inches) is a wakizashi; and over 2 shaku is a katana.

John C. 

[Nick m]

John 

 

Thank you for the quick response and confirming what I thought

 

Mine measured 23.5 inches/ 59.69 cm 

 

V/r

 

Nick

[Bazza]

11 hours ago, Nick m said:

I have concluded that being this sword came to me in a WW2 Saya, that I will be acquiring the fittings and mounts to coincide with the Saya time period. With the cost to acquire vintage fittings and mounts my wife will probably kill me when I am done but guess in for a penny in for a pound.

 

As this is all new to me, I am sure I will be back with more questions or request for opinions from the group.

 

V/R

Nick 

Nick,

From what I can see your sword came to you NOT in a WW2 saya, but an antique lacquered saya with handachi fittings from the late Edo period.  Care to put up photos of the handle & fittings and tsuba???  These are all worthy of preservation as many earlier swords like yours were remounted in the later Edo period for the wars of the time.  If you eventually get the sword polished do try and get a tsunagi (wooden copy of the blade) to preserve the antique mountings as well.  That would be my line of restoration.

BaZZa.

[Geraint]

Dear BaZZa.

 

I believe in his first post Nick told us there was no tsuka, well he said handle but that bit is missing either way.

 

Absolutely agree with everything else you said and the extra missing bits just make it more of a quest.  

 

All the best.

[Nick m]

BaZZa , Geraint, 

 

I want to thank everyone in their willingness to educate this newbie.

 

After reading some more of the other excellent posts here on restoration/conservation, I used my borescope and looked into the Saya and noticed that there is significant amount of dirt and rust staining inside it.  So I think I am going to get another one, before I have the blade polished so that I do not contaminate the freshly polished blade. I know I may not be able to find a vintage one, however as Geraint stated that just makes it more of a quest.  I am finding that I might have to settle for reproduction items vice period items.  

I know that this quest will not happen overnight and will probably have to be done in stages, but in the end I feel it will be exceptionally worthwhile venture. One that will allow me to learn as I return this sword to its functional form which will only enhances its artistic qualities.

As someone who rebuilds old cars and engines by hand, I can fully appreciate the trials and tribulations that the smith went thru as they endeavored to create a function weapon, while at the same time imbibing it with the artistic qualities we today have come to appreciate in their work.  

 

If you want better or close of pictures of a specific portion of the blade or Saya please let me know and I will post them.  The one picture of the Saya and blade together above is how it came to me from the dumpster. 

 

 

V/r

Nick  
 

 

 

[Franco D]

3 hours ago, Nick m said:

I used my borescope and looked into the Saya and noticed that there is significant amount of dirt and rust staining inside it.  So I think I am going to get another one, before I have the blade polished so that I do not contaminate the freshly polished blade.

 

Hello,

 

A properly done restoration includes having a new saya made at the time the sword is polished. Typically the steps are as follows; foundation polish > new habaki > saya (shirasaya) > finish polish. It is important to follow these steps in the correct order, otherwise you may find yourself having to repeat a step. Which would be costly, not to mention the added time and frustration. Generally, the polisher will handle and guide this process. If mounts are to be made it would be wise to have a tsunagi made at this time as well a shirasaya for storage in addition to a new saya for the koshirae. 

Also, it is wise to have the polisher check the sword over before doing anything else to avoid discovering the worst too late.

 

Regards,

 

[Nick m]

Sir, 

 

Thank you for explaining the process, I have no intention of attempting any hands-on restoration work as I do not have the necessary skill set to even think of attempting it. That is something I would leave in the hands of a respected professional.  Respected Professionals that I have seen others here have utilized, to have their own items restored.

 

V/r

Nick    

[Nick m]

Esteemed Members of the Group,

 

I am in need of your recommendations as to who in the US you suggest that I might contact in order to have my blade polished or to at least have a window opened to further assess the blade.

 

 

V/R

 

 

Nick

[John C]

1 hour ago, Nick m said:

to have my blade polished

Nick:

Here is a link to get you started:

https://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/about-us.html

Ted Tenold would be another.

But as Franco said above, the process is expensive - about 70-100 dollars per inch!

Personally, I would do more research on the mei first to be reasonably certain it is legit before dropping that much cash on a polish. In the meantime, you can read-up on some of the preservation methods discussed on NMB (i.e., oiling the blade, using uchiko powder over a period of time, etc.).

John C.

[Nick m]

John C.

 

Thank you for the link, I will view it tonite.

 

What I have been able to find so far about the Smith if there have been up to nine generations. With first starting in 1661 and the last ending about 1784.

 

Do you have a recommendation then of who I could speak with or who is reputable that could confirm or deny whether or not the mei is authentic?

 

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

[John C]

Unfortunately not. Nihonto is not my main area. But, to my untrained eye, the mei looks a little "loose" - meaning not written in a flowing, confident manner. It's a bit sloppy. Remember, however, that blades and signatures run the gamut from excellent blades that are mumei to really bad blades with big names on them and everything in between. It is a nihonto and it should be preserved. You own a real piece of history; that's the fun part.

John C.  

[Nick m]

Sir,

 

Since I have acquired this that has become my adventure, identifying validity of not only the mei, but to also learn about the history of the school and the Smith and most of all the process of making the sword. As an army engineer and a mechanic the process is on how one goes from raw materials to a functional form it's always been a interest to me.

 

And besides in a couple of years when I retire from my second career this will give me purpose each day