WW2 samurai sword

[John C]

1 hour ago, mdiddy said:

Philosophically interesting, but assumes the data and the document say the same thing and they often do not.

I would submit in most cases they do not. A sampling or survey gives us a range from which we can make certain assumptions, for example length of blades, based primarily on measures of central tendency. Given a certain range of lengths, we can infer what the mean length might be and any outliers. Conversely, an official document tells us exactly what the length should be.

Will "real world data" agree with the document? Sometimes. But often times, for whatever reason, official guidelines are not followed. That's why all methods of investigation and research are important.

John C. 

[mdiddy]

Quote

These two methods of discovery can be mutually exclusive.

 

16 hours ago, John C said:

That's why all methods of investigation and research are important.

 

@John C Yeah that’s interesting but still not quite putting it to bed. Here, let me try this way, how does what you are saying apply to @Bruce Pennington's assessment of this sword:

 

1.      The basic identification of the item is incorrect

2.      That incorrect identification is then referenced against someone else’s document based research that was ungrounded in real world data but is now taken at face value as gospel

3.      Incorrect identification + ungrounded research taken at face value = a fantastical assessment

 

The ungrounded document research becomes an accelerant for falsehood. If real world data had been factored in somewhere along the way, it would have tempered the falsehood. That matters because these things spread quickly from forum to forum and if unchecked, every sword with a brown cord we only see half of in a picture is going to be labeled as gunzoku.

 

That’s just bad, shoddy research, I don’t see how it can be seen differently. Essentially, your two methods of research are not mutually exclusive.

 

But I remain open-minded, how does your philosophy / approach solve that scenario?

[Bruce Pennington]

16 hours ago, mdiddy said:

@Bruce Pennington's assessment of this sword:

[John, sorry for interrupting your very good academic discussion, so I'll say my piece and bow out]

 

Matt,

I'm usually able to ignore you and your inflammatory language, but you're exceeding my current skills.  

First, let me correct your last post:  you said that my "assessment of this sword" was: "The basic identification of the item was incorrect"  Hmmmm, here's what I said about the sword " It's a civil sword".  How exactly was that incorrect?

In fact, your items 1-3 seem to be directed at my erroneous initial assessment about the tassel, right?  So your poorly worded rant, left unchecked, 

16 hours ago, mdiddy said:

becomes an accelerant for falsehood.

to use your own words.

 

I have no problems with being wrong about stuff.  I'm quite good at being wrong! Ha!  But I also have no problem acknowledging it when I am.  And I love tossing stuff around until we get it right.  But I only enjoy it when people are treating each other respectfully (whether we actually respect the other guy or not).  Let me be blunt - you have a penchant for using insulting language.  It ruins the debate.  We, and you, are capable of having a debate about the facts without attacking the other person, without getting personal and offensive.  When you do that, then we start detracting from the topic at hand and having tit-for-tat personal discussions.  I don't know a single person on NMB that enjoys seeing that happen.  

 

You have a ton of experience with swords.  We all know that.  But if you want the respect that experience might garner, I recommend you start speaking respectfully in our (NMB) discussions.  You're free to choose.

 

Back to you, John!

[Bruce Pennington]

Now, to recap on what we actually know about the 'late war' all brown tassel:

Fact

We have a 19 August 1940 Uniform Regulation change assigning the all brown tassel to the Hanin-kan class of Gunzoku: " "Hanin-kan currently wear swords identical to company grade officers, but not to confuse them with army officers, the rear of the sword belt and tassel shall now be in brown as differentiation."

 

Fact

We have observed the all brown tassel predominantly on Rinji Seishiki gunto, but also on other types and styles such as civil swords, Type 98s, etc.  We do not have any evidence on WHO carried those swords, whether they were regular Army or Gunzoku personnel.  

 

Fact

The RS variant of the Type 98 officer sword was initiated in 1938 and officially released as Army equipment in 1940.  

 

It would be useful for a researcher looking for a challenge ( @John C @Jcstroud - any interest?) to search for swords with all brown tassels, looking for attributions to owner names/ranks and dates of the gunto the tassels were found on.  Will we find any gunto dated before 1940 with the tassel?  If so, the tassel might have existed already and used by regular Army before the 1940 Uniform Reg change.  It wouldn't be enough to prove or disprove the idea the tassel was used by Gunzoku after that date, but it would add another layer of facts to the issue.  If none are found on gunto prior to 1940 we are back to square 1 without any swords coming with original owner provenance.  

[mdiddy]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I'm quite good at being wrong!

 

I apologize if my language offended you, but I am glad I finally got your attention. You have a history of ignoring my scrutiny and I don’t think that’s a function of inflammatory language. I think it’s a function that you don’t like scrutiny. I don’t like scrutiny either – no one does - and I’ve had to work through that myself in very public ways in public forums before (see attached for an example of your contribution). If you prefer to have scrutiny shared privately, or more congenially, that is fine with me, but that is a two way street and I expect the same from you.

 

I recommend you take my scrutiny as an opportunity. For someone of your growing stature in this community, you should be better, you should ascribe to a higher standard. Let me be blunt – your mistaking the brown cord and over-shooting the sword as gunzoku is the type of simple observational mistake that is beneath you.

 

I really hate having a public spat and it’s unfortunate it came to this. If there is a personality conflict we need to resolve, you are welcome to contact me directly and we can sort it out. I look forward to continue contributing to the collective understanding of nihonto, and engaging you in frank debate to further our learning. At the end of the day if we agree to disagree that’s fine, but I think we can both perform to a higher standard.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ah, now that is a conversation I can participate in!  I appreciate the change in tone.  Thank you, Matt.

 

And thanks for the example of my post from Gunboards.  I can see how "bogus stuff" might be taken as inflammatory.  I'll watch that kind of language in the future.  One of my favorite learning-memories is from a time I fussed at a guy for saying something rude to me.  His response was to post a quote from me saying the exact same rude thing to him a few months earlier!  Ouch!  I'm slow, but trainable.  And I am in no way afraid of scrutiny.  You will find multitudes of examples all over NMB where I was corrected, and the discussions played out easily.  I've ignored your previous shots at me because of the tone and language.  

 

As to my failure to live up to your standards - that's just something you're going to have to learn to deal with, honestly.  The Pursuit of Perfection is a worthy goal, but one each of us can only achieve at our own pace.  In turn, each of us must learn to give grace and patience to those around us who still struggle in areas that we, ourselves, have already mastered.

[Jcstroud]

First time i have seen a tassle tussle😁

[vajo]

Its an wakizashi (naginata naoshi) and someone make a string on it. I would remove it from that sword. 

[Dan Ryan]

7 hours ago, vajo said:

I would remove it from that sword. 

What would you remove, sorry I don’t understand. Thanks for the information. Still wondering if anyone knows more about the artwork like the fish and man? Thanks 

[Bruce Pennington]

6 minutes ago, Dan Ryan said:

Still wondering if anyone knows more about the artwork like the fish and man?

Dan,

There is a much bigger group of guys that study the civil fittings over on the nihonto forums like:

General Nihonto Related Discussion

Nihonto

And fittings specific:

Tosogu

[vajo]

Dan that tassel. 

 

Copper fuchi/Kashira with sea fish in shakudo and gold dots as eyes, edo period. 

[mdiddy]

On 5/27/2023 at 11:56 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Ah, now that is a conversation I can participate in!  I appreciate the change in tone.  Thank you, Matt.

 

Thank you Bruce, looking forward to moving forward 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 5/24/2023 at 2:37 PM, Tensho said:

Bruce, I don't think this was ever mounted for WWII. 

 

I dont know the whole regulations for them, but the fittings on the ones carried by Gunzoku seem to be pretty lack luster(at least what I have seen) and have a way of attaching a tassel on the tsuka(usually a leather "cap")here's one of mine. 

 

Matt,

Do you have nakago photos from this sword?