WW2 samurai sword

[Dan Ryan]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can give me information about a sword my father brought back from Japan around 1945-46. He recently passed away and we found the sword in the house, he had talked about it but didn’t know where he put it for safe keeping! Lol

Edited May 22, 2023 by Dan Ryan
Added photos

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Dan,

Your sword was picked up during/after WWII by your father but it is much older than that. Not much specific information we'll be able to provide from just the pictures - needs to be seen in hand for a true appraisal - but here is a care and cleaning brochure you would be smart to read.

https://nbthk-ab2.org/sword-characteristics/

Grey

[Misconstrued]

Some others will pitch in, but this is an authentic Japanese sword. Don't attempt to clean it or try and restore it, but this sword peaks my interest, especially with its nice fittings. Any 'restoring' should be done by a professional.

[Dan Ryan]

Thanks all for the information, it’s very exciting! 

[Dan Ryan]

[vajo]

I like that tsuka fittings. Fishes are something rare. Your Tsuba shows Gema Senin and the 3 legged immortal toad which gave him the knowledge of immortality.

[Dan Ryan]

Again, thanks for the information, does anyone know a place in the Boston area that does this kind of restoration? 
thanks

[Bruce Pennington]

While we wait for the New Englanders to pipe up, can you show us a good shot of the saya (scabbard)?  Also, can you look around on that tassel to see if there is some faded blue or red, or if it's uniformly brown?

 

The emblem on the habaki (brass collar on the blade) is a kamon, or family crest.  If someone on this thread doesn't give it's meaning, try posting it on the Help Identify our Mons thread.

 

And finally, if you can post a measurement of the back edge of the cutting blade, called the nagasa, we can tell you what 'kind' of blade this is - i.e. tanto, wakizashi, etc.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Dan,

I don't know of competent, properly trained restoration in the Boston area. You shouldn't be restoring this now in any case. You don't know anywhere near enough about Nihonto to make informed decisions and there is no reason to rush into the process (it isn't as simple as saying, Here, fix this please and send me the bill).

I am not an authority but I do have 40 years experience. If you'd like to ask questions feel free to call.

Cheers, Grey  218-340-1001 central time

[Dan Ryan]

Got it! You are correct I don't know anything about this. I appreciate all the knowledge so far!

[Dan Ryan]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

uniformly brown

Hi Bruce, There is nothing else on the Tassel just brown. The scabbard is in rough shape but here is a photo. I don't have it with me to give any measurements but will get those soon. Thanks

[vajo]

Haha the saya looks interesting.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks for checking!  It's a civil sword, but the brown tassel, assuming it came with the sword and not added since then (the age & wear make it look original to the war), likely means it was carried in the war by an official in the civil forces attached to the military - Gunzoku.  They wore uniforms quite similar to the military and served in various jobs throughout the war.  Some reference material call the all-brown tassel a "late war" tassel.  But our recent source, Nick Komiya, uncovered a uniform regulation stating the Gunzoku would use the all brown tassel.  Gunzoku top 2 ranks (working from memory) were allowed to carry standard officer swords, too.  But there were many civil swords that made it into service during the war.

[mdiddy]

15 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

It's a civil sword, but the brown tassel, assuming it came with the sword and not added since then (the age & wear make it look original to the war), likely means it was carried in the war by an official in the civil forces attached to the military - Gunzoku.

 

This assessment is nonsensical. The sword is a naginata naoshi remounted as a wakizashi in traditional samurai style buke zukuri mounts. It was likely brought back from the war or occupation, but there is nothing here suggesting military usage, much less a rare connection to 'Gunzoku'. You can’t see the whole ‘tassel’ so how do you even know if it's a tassel and not something more likely such as a sageo cord or tsukaito? Attaching this sword to 'Gunzoku' is such a leap that it boggles the mind.

 

15 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Some reference material call the all-brown tassel a "late war" tassel.  But our recent source, Nick Komiya, uncovered a uniform regulation stating the Gunzoku would use the all brown tassel.

 

While Nick may have been a top-flight translator and document uncoverer, it seems he really did not dabble in the realities of the real world data. When confronted with the sheer numbers of late war usage he tended to skirt around those facts in a couple of hollow one-liners. Simply regurgitating his assertions as fact whenever possible without any real world data behind them is dangerous, it’s a kind of disinformation. 

 

And if you wonder why the reference material calls the all-brown tassel a "late war" tassel it's probably because the people that wrote those books spent decades on decades in the field collecting and studying examples - in hand if you can believe it - and tended to notice all the all-brown tassels were on Type 3's. Go figure.
 

[mdiddy]

Assuming it will come up and because I have too much time on my hands, here's a little comparison of the cord in question with all-brown tassels vs. tsukaito / sageo. At least to my eye, the cord in question doesn't look all that much like a tassel.

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Agree with Matt, nothing to suggest any military association/use at all. Not sure if that's even a tassel, looks more like a simple Sageo or shoe lace. Regular swords used by civilians will often have the Tsuka modified to include a Sarute and a leather cover with added hanger.

[John C]

59 minutes ago, mdiddy said:

While Nick may have been a top-flight translator and document uncoverer, it seems he really did not dabble in the realities of the real world data.

...And he shouldn't have. These two methods of discovery can be mutually exclusive. Sampling, whether through direct observation or extended survey, in an effort to make a prediction based on inferential statistics (what you call real world data) is effective. But so is finding a document that unequivocally says the same thing directly. For example, I can sample hundreds of short gunto swords in an effort to determine if there were an established minimum length. Or, I can refer to the document that Nick found and translated that states directly what the minimum length for a gunto should be. 

I think if the book writers had access to many of the same documents, they would have used them.

Just my opinion on the validity of research methods.

John C.

[vajo]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:53 AM, vajo said:

I like that tsuka fittings. Fishes are something rare. Your Tsuba shows Gema Senin and the 3 legged immortal toad which gave him the knowledge of immortality.

Why i saw first Gema Senin and the toad?  no it is not. Now i see a crane. 

[Matsunoki]

The Deity represented is most likely Fukurokuju…..often seen with a crane.

From Wiki…….

Fukurokuju is usually portrayed as bald with long whiskers and an elongated forehead.^[1] He is said to be an incarnation of the Southern Polestar. The sacred book tied to his staff either contains the lifespan of every person on earth or a magical scripture. He is accompanied by a crane and a turtle, which are considered to be symbols of longevity. He is also sometimes accompanied by a black deer(ancient legends say a deer turns black if it is over 2000 years old).

He is the only member of the Seven Lucky Gods credited with the ability to resurrect the dead.

[Dan Ryan]

5 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

He is the only member of the Seven Lucky Gods credited with the ability to resurrect the dead.

Any thoughts on the fish that are located on different places? Thanks

[Matsunoki]

Well, fish have always been a massive and vital part of the Japanese diet and as such crop up in many aspects of Japanese art including sword fittings. Having said that they are not that common on swords. The fish on the kashira (pommel) looks like some sort of flatfish and the one on the fuchi (collar) looks like a blowfish. The quality of workmanship looks “ok” but not great although better images would help.

[Bugyotsuji]

Recently I picked up a wakizashi with fish all over it. A rare subject. At first someone suggested Iwamoto Konkan; the work is good, but not that good! Unfortunately I have no other leads at present. 
 

For example:

 

[Matsunoki]

…..and from what we can see of the menuki (small metal ornaments under the  hilt wrapping) …..they are birds, apparently with long flowing tails thus probably ho-o birds (legendary creatures often likened to Phoenix)

 

[Bugyotsuji]

15 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

…..and from what we can see of the menuki (small metal ornaments under the  hilt wrapping) …..they are birds, apparently with long flowing tails thus probably ho-o birds (legendary creatures often likened to Phoenix)

 

Or herons (egrets) and cormorants, after the fish. 
 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Dan,

Sorry for running a parallel discussion, but the point deserves attention.

 

I will defer to John - @PNSSHOGUN - on the tassel.  I have certainly seen plenty of odds and ends tied to swords over the years, too.

 

As to Nick's work.  His research involved deep-dives into Japanese governmental archives and very little into 'real world' sampling (although he certainly had many real world examples to back up various topics like medals, tags, uniform items, etc).  I also know of one example where an Army document specified a numbering style for Type 95s, when reaching into the thousands, which has never been seen on an actual Type 95.  So the regs weren't always followed in real life.  I asked him if the wording of the uniform reg, concerning the all brown tassel could have meant "Guzoku will use the all brown tassel (that is already in use by the Army)" and he was adamant that the wording implied a new item - the all brown tassel.  Since I do not read Japanese, I could only defer to his interpretation.

 

As to the all brown tassel ONLY being on Rinji seishiki gunto - simply not true.  I have seen them on Type 98s, civil swords re-fitted for the war, and even Railway swords.  Now, is it possible even those swords were made in the "late war" time-frame?  Sure, since I don't have records of them to check for dated blades (and not going to take the time to search for them).  So, that is why, usually, I try to offer both options when discussing this type tassel.  

[SteveM]

3 hours ago, Dan Ryan said:

Any thoughts on the fish that are located on different places?

 

My guess is that they are snapper (tai) and blowfish (fugu). Both are omens of good luck. 

Edit: The one could be a flounder (karei) which is another good omen. 

[Tensho]

Bruce, I don't think this was ever mounted for WWII. 

 

I dont know the whole regulations for them, but the fittings on the ones carried by Gunzoku seem to be pretty lack luster(at least what I have seen) and have a way of attaching a tassel on the tsuka(usually a leather "cap")here's one of mine. 

[Dan Ryan]

7 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

fish all over it.

Wow! That is the closest match to mine that I have seen! Thanks

[mdiddy]

21 hours ago, John C said:

...And he shouldn't have. These two methods of discovery can be mutually exclusive. Sampling, whether through direct observation or extended survey, in an effort to make a prediction based on inferential statistics (what you call real world data) is effective. But so is finding a document that unequivocally says the same thing directly.

 

Philosophically interesting, but assumes the data and the document say the same thing and they often do not.

 

21 hours ago, John C said:

Or, I can refer to the document that Nick found and translated that states directly what the minimum length for a gunto should be.

 

For example:

 

[mdiddy]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I will defer to John - @PNSSHOGUN - on the tassel.

 

If you are going to defer to others on something as basic as a tassel when confronted with evidence, why are you authoritatively commenting on it in the first place? Much less using it as the basis to extrapolate to some more random and rare scenario (i.e. ‘Gunzoku'). And that’s my point on why some of Nick’s info can be dangerous when it is not understood in the context of the real world data.

 

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

As to Nick's work.  His research involved deep-dives into Japanese governmental archives and very little into 'real world' sampling [...] So the regs weren't always followed in real life [...] Since I do not read Japanese, I could only defer to his interpretation.

 

Yes, and that’s the problem. His research is really great and fascinating but there are holes. A straight verbatim reading of his analyses without some understanding of the underlying real world data results in these quacky assessments.

 

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

As to the all brown tassel ONLY being on Rinji seishiki gunto - simply not true.

 

You are correct, my statement that "all the all-brown tassels were on Type 3's" was inaccurate. In my haste I said 'all' when 'most' would have been more accurate.