Signed Tsuba

[Jean]

Yesterday I had lunch with an old friend who brought me a batch of tsuba asking me to sell them.

they were in a safe along with ivory netsuke.

 

most of the tsuba are signed, they will be in the For sale section, once their value assessed.

[dimitri]

The tsuba with the waves is superb, is it a tsuba for Katana?

[ROKUJURO]

Second TSUBA seems to be signed ECHIZEN no JU KINAI SAKU. Sparrow TSUBA possibly has a signature beginning with HACHIMAN.....TSUNEMASA (not very sure, photos are less than excellent...).

[Nobody]

The third tsuba,

八幡太郎鳩丸 – Hachiman Taro Hatomaru

御太刀鍔 – On-Tachi tsuba (tsuba for a tachi)

[Jean]

The wave tsuba is rather tanto size. I have just taken pictures of the batch, I will post them in the tsuba section

[uwe]

Second seems “越前住記内作” (Echizen jū Kinai saku)….

 

Just noticed Jean’s post above 👍

[rematron]

This is a photo I took of the mei of tsuba #3.  Does it read: 

KONOBU MUNEMASA ?

I’m struggling a little with the first kanji.

It looks a little like ‘ko’ on the right and ‘nobu’ on the left.  Sorry for my ignorance. 
 

Also, what is the meaning of “Hachiman Taro Hatomaru”?

 

[mywei]

 

See this for reference - Myochin Munemasa, looks like your one

https://www.shoubudo...il.php?product_id=54

 

Hachiman Taro - also known as Minamoto no Yoshiie, a military figure from the Heian period, whose Mon was that of a dove "鳩"

 

Hope that helps

[rematron]

Thanks, Matt.  What does the word “Hatomaru” mean? And is the first kanji before Munemasa actually read: ‘Myochin’?

[SteveM]

記宗政 is read as Ki Munemasa

 

Normally he signed 紀宗政 (also pronounced Ki Munemasa). I don't know why the different kanji (same pronunciation) is used. Seems very unusual. He is from the Myōchin line, but in looking at the tsuba #3 in this thread I don't see the word "Myōchin" on the tsuba. (It is, however, present on the tsuba in Matt's link). 

 

"Hatomaru" refers to the shape of the tsuba (hato = pigeon). 

[mywei]

Hi Steve I did wonder about the discrepancy in the Ki 記 on this tsuba, but perhaps wrongly assumed it was just a variation given the same pronunciation!

 

Interestingly I found another tsuba of this design and inscription but just signed 紀宗政 without the Myochin. This was a probably a popular design that had a few copies made at the time? Which would make them at risk of having gimei also ...

 

https://ginza.choshu..._3200/3165/k3165.htm

 

[rematron]

Thank you, Steve. Perhaps this is a later generation of Munemasa that signed without the Myochin kanji? I suppose I will need to find other examples of a legitimized mei that are just Ki Munemasa if there are any.  Needless to say, I hope it’s not gimei. 
Matt, thank you for the links of other examples. 

[SteveM]

Yes this use of 記 (rather than 紀) is very unusual. The lack of Myōchin doesn't really bother me as much as the use of 記. I looked at a lot of signatures online and couldn't find any use or reference to 記宗政. Like Matt, I didn't think much about the discrepancy at first, but the more I dug around, the more it bothered me.  

 

Wakayama lists 7 smiths who used the Munemasa (宗政) name, and 3 of these were from the Myōchin school. None of the entries mention this use of 記. But I think its obvious this inscription is intending to signal a connection to 紀宗政. Whether its a legitimate connection, or some kind of forgery, is a question that might only be answered through appraisal.

 

Anyway, I knew nothing of these pigeon-themed tsuba or of Munemasa before this thread, so digging into some of these details has been very interesting and useful for me. As often happens with posts like these on NMB, it has ended up being a good learning experience 

 

 

[rematron]

Oh good! Glad you got something out of it.  I've been wanting one of these tsuba since I started collecting but hope I didn't over-pay for this one if it's actually not Myochin.  Perhaps Jean's friend will give me a refund.  Another learning experience for me as well.  I'm currently bidding on a Wakayama set.  I really appreciate you looking through yours. 

 

[Larason2]

The two characters 記 紀 have two different meanings in Chinese, but are pronounced identically, and are used interchangeably in Japanese kanji (no apparent difference in meaning). (In Chinese, notes/record vs. discipline). Usually, the primary radical denotes what category of words it belongs to, the second radical how you say it. The first radical has to do with speech or writing, the second radical is an ancient one that used to mean "silk," presumably associating the words with refinement, excellence. Given the more auspicious nature of the second radical, there appears to be a tendency of Japanese kanji to move from the first radical to the second over time. I've seen this in some of my research, since more than one word can use the same radical. Since in Japanese Kanji there isn't the fine differentiation of meaning (and its irrelevance to names), the change of the character presumably didn't bother them much. Sime writers also appear to have used the two forms interchangably. 

 

It is odd that a smith that usually signed his characters one way would suddenly sign them another way, but it is equally odd for someone making a gimei signature to not use the exact same character of the example signature they were using (unless they were going by pronunciation only, which is possible.) Still, I think that it's almost as likely that a smith started with the simple signature and moved to the fancier one over time than a gimei signer was going off the words only, so I would say it probably doesn't have much bearing on the value of the piece, other than to suggest it might be an early example or gimei.

[rematron]

I suppose, Carlos.  That's a valid hypothesis.  Still need to find a validated example of mine special mei.  If you're correct, there's gotta be another one out there somewhere.  It's a mystery tsuba now.  It's gone from "real Myochin" to odd and suspect.  I was also curious if it's gimei, they managed to get all the other inscription correct.  I'm noticing that the beak shape is different on the examples with "Myochin", as well as the placement of the eye; more naturally behind the top portion of the beak.  I'm gonna become an expert on these. 

[Brian]

53 minutes ago, rematron said:

I'm currently bidding on a Wakayama set. 

You mean the 8 volume Toso Kodogu Koza set? Or something else.
I'm trying to find out current values on the whole set, have one for sale.

[rematron]

It's this 3 volume set.

 

https://www.Japanese...-with-english-index/

 

Same set George used to help me with the Choshu tsuba.

[rematron]

Brian, your set sounds interesting.  I wonder what the differences between the two sets are.

[SteveM]

I think the 3 volume set (Meijitaikei) is a compendium of signatures. Looks to be mostly black and white. 

The 8 book set (7 volumes + 1 Appendix) is a much more comprehensive study of technique and styles as well as signatures, and in color. 

 

Edit to add: Either of them would be an excellent addition to anyone's library. 

[rematron]

I won the 3-volume set (Meijitaikei) at 57,000 yen (about 20% less than what @Grey Doffin sold them for) but I was willing to go up to Grey's price range.  The 8-volume set was up for auction also and ended at 24,321 yen (刀装小道具講座！全８巻揃い！後藤家他！佐藤寒山 (著) 若山泡沫 (著)　　　　　　　　検赤坂甲冑師透鐔鐔目貫縁頭日本刀鞘鍔小柄短刀脇差 /【Buyee】 Buyee - Japanese Proxy Service | Buy from Japan! bot-online).  I suspect that the seller won their own auction on that one, especially if the 8-volume set does indeed include all the same info as the 3-volume set.  It could be that the eight-volume set just isn't in as much demand for some reason.  @SteveM, do you own the 8-volume set?  Perhaps people don't know that the 8-volume set contains the same information as the 3-volume set.  I very well could have been bidding against the seller for the 3-volume set.  Anyways, I'm happy I got it.  It will help me learn kanji and will be a valuable tool for collecting.

[SteveM]

No, I don't own either. I make do with two other books from Wakayama, but I'd like to have both of the above. 

 

[rematron]

Ah. Okay.  I suspect then that the 8-volume does not have the same info as the 3-volume.  Maybe @Grey Doffin can confirm this.  I would like the 8-volume set some day as well.

[Brian]

I don't think they are the same at all. I think the 3 volume set only deals with late Edo kinko schools...a very small part of what the 8 volume set handles. Could be wrong, but I know the 8 Volume set contains a great deal more subject matter.
Low prices from Japan could be due to the cost of shipping 12kg+ from there overseas.

[rematron]

The shipping price for weight definitely could be a factor.  Do you mean kinko in the sense of soft metal?  I know that George used Meijitaikei to look at Choshu signatures which I thought were mostly iron.  I wish we could chat with someone who actually owns the 8-volume set.  I'm under the impression that the 3-volume set deals only with mei and doesn't even have full photos of tosogu (or not very many), just the signatures.

[Marauder]

Are these tsuba still being offered for sale? 

[francois2605]

@Marauder Please find Jean's latest sale posts here