HELP PLEASE! Sword identification

[Kyle68]

My grandpa brought back this sword from the pacific in WW2. I was told the blade could be older than WW2. Can anyone tell me anything about it or it’s history?  

 

IMG_4390.MOV

[Brian]

Oh damn.
This is going to turn out to be something significant. And ruined. Right?
Aaaahhh.
This is really going to have to be seen in hand by someone. Where are you based?

[Matsunoki]

Kyle , hello

Well, what can we tell from these images…..

It’s a lot older than WW2

It is a Samurai katana adapted and partially remounted to be carried in the war but has retained its lacquered Samurai saya (scabbard) which probably had a leather cover for war use

It has retained its original double habaki (the collar between tang and blade)

it has lost its hilt wrappings

It is just about the worst condition I’ve ever seen and that’s saying something coming from the UK!

but

that does not mean it’s a write off. That depends on how deep the rust goes, how thick/heavy/chunky the blade is under the rust. It needs to be seen as Brian says by someone who knows. To my eyes it looks like it was once an interesting sword…..and maybe it still is.

Dont be tempted to try and restore it yourself. It may be a bit late but just cover the blade in a light oil for now.

Do not clean rust off the tang……leave it.

It’s worth making the effort to meet up with someone who can have a better look.

Good luck with it.

Colin

 

 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Kyle,

As mentioned, rough condition but, if the sword is better quality, which it may be in spite of its condition, it may be restorable and end up more valuable than the cost of restoration, which will be significant if done right by a properly trained craftsman. If you'd like someone to bounce questions off, feel free to call. I'm not an authority but I have 40 years experience with these swords and I will tell you what I know. In the mean time, don't rush into any decisions; take the time to better understand what you have before acting. And this includes the bronze brush which is about to be recommended in the next post; don't do it. Restoration should be left to those with training and rank beginners shouldn't be told how to fix their swords.

Cheers, Grey 218-340-1001 US central time

[Alex A]

Personally, would let it soak in oil and gently go over it with a tooth brush a few times

 

And as above.

[Jon]

That poor sword needs some oil as a first step and maintained in an environment that will stabilise the rust. store it in a room with low humidity that is constant, with a constant temp…sudden increases in humidity and temperature changes are death to any iron or steel sword…swords like to live in the same rooms as people, not in sheds, garages or attics..but mainly oil the poor thing every now and then, remembering to remove the old oil then apply new oil as part of a regular maintenance regime.

 

Unfortunately you will probably not know if it will be cost effective to get the sword polished and restored ( the blade being more that the restoration cost ) until after it’s done…but what you have there is a piece of history and a blade that would have been cherished over generations..that came into your family’s care and is now part of your family history and things like that go beyond mere economics. If you do go for a restoration don’t forget to also get a Shirasaya made for the sword ( it’s around £300) ..as you would not want to house your newly polished blade in the saya it’s been rusting in for 80+ years.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

You can find links to polishers at the top of the page under "Nihonto info" then "Links" then "restoration".  A polish will run over $2,000, but by the sounds of the guys' evaluations already, yours sounds like it would be worth it.  

[lonely panet]

Im not a togi,  but i would confidently say its beyond help

[DoTanuki yokai]

In what is possible there were much more destroyed blades returned to live that I have seen. 

[vajo]

I can recommend that book 

 

[Stephen]

  On 6/5/2023 at 10:54 AM, lonely panet said:

Im not a togi,  but i would confidently say its beyond help

Expand  

That's why your not a togi.

 

Don't listen to the naysayers red rust is active rust.

After soaking in oiled cloth. 

Lightly tap the tang until the flaky rust drops of. Go no farther. Consult experts. 

As stated we can't tell how deep the pitting is. 

We've all seen important blades restored. 

Grey couldn't be a better sounding board. 

Very respected in the community.

He won't let you down.

Oil NOW 💪

[lonely panet]

no 

  On 6/10/2023 at 2:27 PM, Stephen said:

That's why your not a togi.

 

Don't listen to the naysayers red rust is active rust.

After soaking in oiled cloth. 

Lightly tap the tang until the flaky rust drops of. Go no farther. Consult experts. 

As stated we can't tell how deep the pitting is. 

We've all seen important blades restored. 

Grey couldn't be a better sounding board. 

Very respected in the community.

He won't let you down.

Oil NOW 💪

Expand  

no im not a togi, 

but iv had some experience's with getting opinions from respected togi on swords with far less damage then the above item.

 

you dont see the lack of pitting because RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE the Ha has almost completey vanished from aggressive state of corrosion.  so the shape may be lost in the hunt for stable metal.

 

not be negative 

[ROKUJURO]

  On 6/5/2023 at 10:54 AM, lonely panet said:

Im not a togi....

Expand  

Just as information for our newcomers so they can learn it correctly: TOGI is polish, the craftsman who does a polish is a TOGISHI.

[lonely panet]

Yes, sorry for being lazy with the correct terminology.

[Stephen]

  On 6/12/2023 at 1:08 AM, lonely panet said:

Yes, sorry for being lazy with the correct terminology.

Expand  

I don't think you're being lazy Hamish it's pretty common place around here to say Togi.

Most do and we all knew what you were talking about.

[Nihonto Chicken]

While the rust on this sword does appear to be quite substantial, only a number one stone will show how deep it goes (togishi recommended).  I once had two blades with an equivalent covering of rust, running from from shiny metal to black spider webs to crusty brown and red patches.  Turned out that the traditionally made sword (Masamura, modern smith) had very deep pits that couldn't be removed without removing an excessive amount of metal.  The non-traditional Showato (Kumemune, see Yumoto p.40) had only light rust penetration and polished up nicely.  Go figure.

 

The OP's sword is in regrettable condition, but a window opened up over the worst rust patch would likely be a good move after the current rust is stabilized.