Daisho at last

[Ooitame]

I think besides a true matched Daisho, it was common to see not perfect matching sets as a Daisho. However, being collectors and striving for the cream of the crop, this is what collectors think of here and elsewhere. So with historical evidence of non true matching Daisho. Can we accept that there are more than one way to classify a Daisho?

 

[Ooitame]

@Stephen and @SRDRowson, may we also see the blades paired?

 

[Seth]

Just contributing with my set (redneck daisho ), they are similar but certainly not matched or true. Both are Shinto. Please do not judge on the Chinese kake I haven't found the right real one yet. I also do not keep these out just snapped this pic when inspecting. 

 

[Baba Yaga]

14 minutes ago, Ooitame said:

I think besides a true matched Daisho, it was common to see not perfect matching sets as a Daisho. However, being collectors and striving for the cream of the crop, this is what collectors think of here and elsewhere. So with historical evidence of non true matching Daisho. Can we accept that there are more than one way to classify a Daisho?

 

 

18 minutes ago, Ooitame said:

I think besides a true matched Daisho, it was common to see not perfect matching sets as a Daisho. However, being collectors and striving for the cream of the crop, this is what collectors think of here and elsewhere. So with historical evidence of non true matching Daisho. Can we accept that there are more than one way to classify a Daisho?

 

 

Whatever the NBTHK papers them as, since they are the gold standard. Everyone is hung-up on papers which equates to precise authenticity and value.  

[Guest Simon R]

5 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

No disrespect, but what does close mean? Does the papers say daito, or matched set? 

No disrespect taken.
I simply meant that I had them both mounted in identical urushi and a sympathetically matching, late EDO style. I thought the thread had moved on from 'the ideal' to the fact that a so-called daisho is often personal to the owner.

 

Oh and as for papers, the katana has two sets - one saying Owari shin-shinto, the other gendaito.

The tanto is papered to Sue Seki.

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, Ooitame said:

@Stephen and @SRDRowson, may we also see the blades paired?

 

Sorry not up to it.... You mean bare blade? If so sorry. 

[Ooitame]

@Stephen I understand, please forigve me, I did not mean put people in the spotlight. Maybe one day, that is how I feel lol.

[Brian]

Can guys stop getting confused between daito and daisho please?
Daito = long sword...katana/tachi
Daisho - big-little.... A set of short and long sword.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Time for some sensibility and Daisho context I think:

 

 

[Alex A]

For those that have not looked Japanese SWORD - Swords of the 47 Ronin (japaneseswordindex.com)

 

Think 5 out of the 33 mentioned had matching mei.

[Guest Simon R]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Time for some sensibility and Daisho context I think:

 

 

God, I miss Guido.

[Alex A]

Think about all the swords handed down and the reasons why some would not have wanted or been able to attain a "true" daisho.

[Baba Yaga]

Is a Tachi and and Tanto considered a Daisho? That combo was worn by Samurai. Most certainly won't be of the same Koshirae, but can be from the same smith,  

Wait until you see the 46 references pertaining to the definition of a Tachi. 

 

I "think" the definitions lead us to one thing and one thing only. How deep are our pockets.  

[Alex A]

All of those listed above are Katana/wakizashi, no tanto, that was 1702.  Not all had a wak. (reading again)

 

See lots of images at the end of the Edo, Katana/tanto. First photo taken in Japan was 1861 according to the internet.

 

Just wondering if trends had changed by then and for general mooching about many just chose the tanto?, dunno.

 

Read of daisho with 2 waks,

 

A few reasons for non-matching sword daisho, off top of head.

 

They were expensive.

 

One had a Katana handed down, its precious and 200 years old, how you going to get the smith to make a wak?

 

You had a matching daisho but the katana shattered like glass in a duel, you don't want another by that smith

 

You don't like the local swords so just grab what you can when you get the chance.

 

Your master gave you a katana but no wak

 

You stole a better katana on the battlefield

 

Someone stole your katana so you had to buy another.

 

You just don't care whether they match or not.

 

You seen a better katana in a dealers that was a bargain.

 

You cut your finger on the wak, you think its cursed and so on.................

 

 If i was to meet some old dude in Japan that had a daisho and he was saying they were his great great grandfathers daisho but went on to say they are by diffrent smiths at different times, im hardly likely to go "WHOA, what you talking about?, that's not a TRUE daisho!!!!!!!!!!"

 

In an ideal world they would be matching and every Samurai would be walking around with a smile knowing they were matching.

 

But its not an ideal world and definitely wasn't back then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

" If i was to meet some old dude in Japan that had a daisho and he was saying they were his great great grandfathers daisho but went on to say they are by diffrent smiths at different times, im hardly likely to go "WHOA, what you talking about?"

 

I would say, that's true. 

 

Yep, I personally throw the white flag up. More good questions then answers.  

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think people might be too strict on the classification of daishō. The true daishō that has been mentioned in this thread is actually extremely rare. While Jūyō passed items are not the definitive in anything I can just put the numbers that there are 25 Jūyō papered Daishō blades. Only 3 of these Daishō had attachment Daishō koshirae being listed in the papers. 1 Of them has been at later shinsa "elevated" as Daishō & Daishō koshirae.

 

This was Daishō with attachment koshirae in Jūyō 16 but both were added on the same appraisal in Jūyō 47. This is pretty much ultimate rarity.

 

 

There are 87 Daishō Koshirae at Jūyō, and it seems that 3 of them have Daishō blades attached to the koshirae.

 

There are probably some more completely matching sets in Daimyō collections, Museums, Shrines etc. but as the daishō paired blades are so new by default I don't really have personal intrest in digging them out.

[Alex A]

Another case of the biggest problem in Nihonto, folks constantly insisting everything neatly fits into suitable boxes/brackets, as that's usually the case in books. Whether swords, tsuba, whatever.

[Ooitame]

Well this has certainly turned into a good conversation. With, quotes, actual numbers, historical information, a very good conversation! One more, of many reasons why the NMB, is needed; including its members.

 

[Alex A]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:19 AM, SRDRowson said:

 

 

Oh and as for papers, the katana has two sets - one saying Owari shin-shinto, the other gendaito.

 

 

Forgot to reply earlier. Always reassuring to know even experts give differing opinions, not just the folks here.

 

Folks often say "send it off to shinsa, to the real experts"

 

Even they don't see eye to eye on some swords. 

 

Another topic though but thought it was another interesting interlude.

[Ooitame]

40 minutes ago, Alex A said:

 

Forgot to reply earlier. Always reassuring to know even experts give differing opinions, not just the folks here.

 

Folks often say "send it off to shinsa, to the real experts"

 

Even they don't see eye to eye on some swords. 

 

Another topic though but thought it was another interesting interlude.

Interesting topic as well. To relate, can two swords such as the same attribution of Den and Nengo, be a Daisho?

[rematron]

It’s a great conversation but the outcome is that whenever the word ‘daisho’ is used in NMB, it apparently needs a qualifier attached to it. So to answer the above question: Yes, of course, if we’re talking about ‘Joe Samurai daisho’ but No, if we’re talking about ‘Perfection Snob Collector daisho’.  

[Baba Yaga]

I assuming the word "Daisho" came before 1948  Society for the Preservation of the Japan Art Sword, or even 1911. 

[Ooitame]

So it seems there are different level of Daiso. IMHO 1. Holly Grail: Matching mei and time, matching Koshirae and tosogu. 2. Very rare: Matching mei and date, Kosirare matching, tosogu might not match. 3. Rare: Matching mei and date, Koshirae might not match, tosogu match 4. Higly Uncommon: Matching mei, dates will vary, koshirae might not match, tosogu might not match. I could go a few layers deeper, eluding to Darcy's reference of several different meanings, but what do our members think of creating such a scale/criteria?

[rematron]

IMO it’s overthinking it. 

[Ooitame]

Fair enough.

[Alex A]

Ask yourself what you would rather own ?, may be interesting as we all look at things differently.  Take value out of the equation 

 

An Edo katana and wakizashi signed by the same smith and made at the same time with matching fittings that were all put together in recent years,.

 

or

 

An Antique Katana and a Wakizashi by different smiths in similar koshirae that have provenance to have been owned by a Samurai in 1850 and showing appropriate wear. 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Give me the authentic samurai version every time…..but as you say….it depends…..it’s like the very expensive “modern” Tachi Koshirae currently making a fortune with no blade in them.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Matsunoki
Typo

[Alex A]

Its about what you can live with Colin.

 

The way i look at it, if the Many Samurai were able to live with Daisho that did not match then its good enough for me.

 

If folk want to create their own Daisho then later want to sell,  then they need to understand lots of buyers wont share their thoughts as to it being a "daisho"

 

Personally, for display purpose. If i wanted a Daisho and someone had cobbled one together well, i wouldn't get to hung up about it and may be tempted. You see them occasionally at Aoi and other stores.

[PNSSHOGUN]

It is more about preserving authentic history, not creating it to satisfy selfish delusions.

[Baba Yaga]

Lets not kid ourselves, collecting purity is about commerce. People who can afford the pure will defend pure and the people who can't will defend the other. Just because a person can afford purity doesn't make for the more knowledgeable collector. The same goes for people who can't afford purity making them any more knowledgeable. Collectors with more will make mistakes just like collectors with less.  Life is life and people will always be people.