Fake Swords, Armor, value, etc.

[Miura]

Im opening this topic, having been inspired by some of the comments on the thread regarding the Sotheby's modern armour that was first mistakenly identified as Edo and then as Meiji.  I just thought I would give a little insight into the topic from the perspective of an armor maker.  One thing that I notice is the word "fake" being thrown around a lot. I even do it myself .      I think we need to be careful about how we use the word, for one, because there are still some people such as myself making armor. Just because we create something in 2023, doesnt mean that it is fake.  Im an armor maker after all, and I dont think that the art that I do is fake.  The proper word would be "recent" .  Even the word "modern" (gendai)  in Japanese  would imply that it has some modern technology, style, adaptation etc. that is of the post feudal or industrial era.  For those of us who work traditionally, I think its a misnomer to call our work "modern".  For context I'll relate an experience I had a while back, several years ago, I was asked to advise a rather famous shrine in Japan regarding their armor collection.  The well known family that the armors belonged to, had an armor of a particular type and style made for each generation once they were named heir apparent of the household. The armors spanned approximately 260 years from the first generation till the last generation.  They changed very little over time. Just because one was made in 1603 and one was made in say 1850, does not mean that the one in 1850 was a fake.  In Japan they have the word "utsushi" which would usually translate as a "copy" However, I think that word does not translate as well as calling it a "mirror image or likeness".  In the case of the armor that I and my teacher restored, the armors were so alike that they mixed up and brought out the wrong helmet and nobody noticed until I told them that they had brought out the wrong helmet for the armor.....     In the case of this family the style of armor was created to bring happiness as it represented wealth and prosperity.  Long story short. Just because an armor of the same style was made at a later date does not make it "fake".   Just as a ferrari from 2023 is not a fake ferrari just becasue its recent.  What I would consider a good use of the word fake would be likened to the word "imitation" such as imitation cheese - looks like cheese, tastes like cheese, but in terms of how its made, and what goes into it, very different, and selling fake cheese to somebody and telling them that it is real cheese is wrong. 

 

Regarding recently made REAL armor and swords; what people need to understand is that to make these things traditionally, it takes a lot of knowledge, a lot of time, a lot of materials, and a lot of skill.  I used to make swords, nothing larger than wakizashi Ill admit as my forge was not large enough, but I was capable of producing a rather nice tanto blade with over a thousand layers in one day. But that is just a blade. A small one.    Armor is a totally different beast.  Multiple skills, various materials, and volumes of knowledge.  What most people do not understand is that making an armor from scratch requires so much time, skill, and materials, that it is actually cheaper to buy an antique. Which is why most of my work time is put into restoring rather than making.  One reason that most of the "lay craftsmen" stick to the creation of o-yoroi is because it requires much less skill, than it does to create a tosei armor, though it does require a lot of time and materials.  Tosei armor, depending on the level of armor, requires a great deal of expertise and skill with a hammer, tagane, and iron/steel as well as various versions of urushi -  an o-yoroi does not.  Another reason that many lay craftsmen and professionals alike produce o-yoroi is because original antiqueexamples are simply not available on the market for sale.  Therefore, if somebody wishes to have one in their collection, they would have to have one made by an armor maker.   One of the last things that I did for my teacher before he entered the nursing home was to sell his "Kiku-ichi" yoroi to tsurugaoka Hachimangu.  He wanted me to handle the negotiation with the shrine because its difficult to do negotiation for your own item, and it also requires somebody with enough knowledge to explain the value.  Some of my talking points were:  1. How much the materials cost in the late 70s (when it was begun) compared to today. 2. How much time it took to make (it took two artisan 5 years to complete) 3. The fact that a national treasure kinko shi made the kanamono and how much that cost in the 70s. 4. How much it would cost and the time required to do it today.  (it would cost around $1,000,000 dollars today to create an utsushi of the armor. 5. finally I said that the armor was already 30 years old, and it is still in perfect condition. This is a testimony to the quality of the armor, and that usually if an armor is not well made, it starts to fall apart over that amount of time.   The difference between Miura sensei's "kiku-ichi" yoroi and most of the o-yoroi  that you see made by lay-craftsmen is the skill required to make it.    The kiku-ichi had a koboshi hachi with ornate hand done metal work.   Most lay craftsmen's yoroi are o-boshi with fewer plates and cast metal fittings; much less time and much less skill.  The Kiku-ichi was smaller kozane. Most lay craftsmen create o-yoroi with  o-zane;  half the time, half the work, and less skill.  Artisans use urushi, lay craftsmen use fake urushi.     These are just a few of the points.  These detailed things are what a sword artisan or an armor artisan sees when they look at a work.  1. How much time, 2. how much skill, 3.how much materials and the costs thereof.      To sum it up, this knowledge allows us to look at things from a totally different perspective.  But it also allows us to determine authenticity and value.  

 

In conclusion I hope that my words here have helped to give a greater respect and understanding for REAL traditionally made Japanese art work.  The armor that was being sold at Sothebys was indeed a fake Japanese armor because it was made to look like one from the outside, however, when examined closely, it is not made with the proper materials, nor the skills required to produce what defines a traditionally made Japanese armor.   Hopefully understanding the great differences between real fakes and real traditionally made Japanese armors will encourage people to seek out a qualified artisan to create one for you. 

 

 

[chris covington]

Mr. Mancabelli,

 

I have often thought about this topic. It’s so hard for a skilled artisan to stay in business. The economic realities are tough. I remember several years ago studying an amazing Ko-Ichimonji tachi. The short time I had with it was great. This had everything you might want in a Nihonto. I started to think about the cost of shinsakuto. The cost to have a sword made by a top smith wasn’t that much different from this 13th century sword. That is a harsh reality. You know where most people would put their money.

 

 

I love that guys like you, Mr. Kadoya,  Mr. Nishioka, Arthur, and a handful of other real katchushi are still making this stuff, for real. I remember the video of you and your dragonfly maedate. Do you still have that, or at least photos of it? I’d love to see more of it and maybe a bit about. Amazing work. I’ve heard Arthur’s okitenugui called the best kabuto made outside of Japan. Mr. Kadoya’s social media pages are filled with an almost “how to” level of detail. Mr. Nishioka has made some great pieces, as well. We need more of this.

 

 

The community should really be supporting artists who are making real armor, beyond just having them repair antiques. Once the handful of real artists are gone there won’t be anyone to relace and repair the antiques. What will fill that void will be pretty bad. 

 

Thanks,

Chris

[YOJIMBO]

3 hours ago, chris covington said:

The community should really be supporting artists who are making real armor, beyond just having them repair antiques. Once the handful of real artists are gone there won’t be anyone to relace and repair the antiques. What will fill that void will be pretty bad. 

 

Thanks,

Chris

Well, that's why I got rid of everything that required some kind of intervention. I would never buy again.

[Luc T]

I saw pictures from a copy of Tokugawa’s daikokunari gusoku, made by Nishioka san.  Incredible work!

[Miura]

15 hours ago, Luc T said:

I saw pictures from a copy of Tokugawa’s daikokunari gusoku, made by Nishioka san.  Incredible work!

Does he have any diagrams of how he made it? Id be interested if he followed the same construction as the original. 

[IBot]

I saw a copy of Ieyasu's Daikokunari kabuto in the US once. It also had the fern leaf maedate associated with it and was beautifully made but no indication of who had made it.

Ian Bottomley 

[Luc T]

I think it’s another one Ian, according my information it is brand new.   I’ll ask if I can publish pictures.

[Miura]

15 hours ago, Luc T said:

I think it’s another one Ian, according my information it is brand new.   I’ll ask if I can publish pictures.

Id be happy to contribute if you would like to start a thread on Daikoku Nari kabuto.  Not sure how we got here from the original topic.

[Arthur G]

2 hours ago, Miura said:

Id be happy to contribute if you would like to start a thread on Daikoku Nari kabuto.  Not sure how we got here from the original topic.

Here's a weird one. I have it filed away as a zukin, but it feels like it's in the same family.


 

[Shogun8]

This kabuto is reminiscent of a Nagasone.

[uwe]

It’s described as “Daikoku zukin nari kabuto” as also as “Nanban bōshi nari kabuto”. 

I spot sawari?! But the caption says ginrō-nagashi….

[Miura]

That helmet would be a worthy challenge. But not how the Tokugawa helmets were made. Anybody has a budget, let me know. 👍🏻And its off topic again! Haha. New daikokunari thread please....