Identifying a found Kabuto

carolinaskies · May 7, 2023

I'm a buyer and seller of all kinds of interesting things, and today I came across one of my most interesting pieces coming from the hands of Japanese craftsmen in the past. Of course it's a kabuto, but as it's my first real piece of very old headgear I know little about these and am intrigued to learn as much as I can about this one.

It has 62 iron segments, the weight of the kabuto was very surprising! It has squat rivets and a number of holes along the bottom perimeter. It has black laquer on the outside and a couple spots of red on the inside. I didn't find any markings of maker, is this more common in one period over another? Or is it an indication of perhaps apprentice work?

The various number and size holes along that bottom have me wondering what might have been attached and do these indicate maybe it is an older kabuto that might have been updated in style at a later time?

Any help and information is greaty appreciated!

Arthur G · May 7, 2023

It's a nice find. I have some thoughts but I'm a moron when it comes to suji-bachi. I'm excited to see what some others say.

That rivet with the washer inside is something I know the Saotome did. The shape of it reminds me of a Gitsu but I'm sure I'm wrong there.

The holes redrilled in the koshimaki makes me think something on the older side of things.

I think you stumbled into a very nice find.

Edit: Reviewed some things. I'd bet money on Saotome looking at the mabizashi style as well as the Shiten-no-byo and hibiki-no-ana.

Luc T · May 7, 2023

At first glance You have a nice Saotome here. Unsigned but all the technical features are there.

except that it seems made front to back. But better pictures can tell this.

uwe · May 7, 2023

Yes, looks very Saotome!

A neglected but good quality kabuto. Is there something chiseled at the lower backplate (inside)?

Nice find, congrats!

chris covington · May 7, 2023

4 hours ago, Luc T said:

At first glance You have a nice Saotome here. Unsigned but all the technical features are there.

except that it seems made front to back. But better pictures can tell this.

I was going to ask, why is the front plate in the back and the Saotome rivet in the front?!? Maybe it was refitted and they fixed it backwards?

carolinaskies · May 7, 2023

16 hours ago, uwe said:

Yes, looks very Saotome!

A neglected but good quality kabuto. Is there something chiseled at the lower backplate (inside)?

Nice find, congrats!

Nothing chiseled that is readily visible.

carolinaskies · May 7, 2023

12 hours ago, chris covington said:

I was going to ask, why is the front plate in the back and the Saotome rivet in the front?!? Maybe it was refitted and they fixed it backwards?

Maybe this explains why the kabuto remained unsigned, that a mistake was made and he would not affix his name to it?

I have not found any bare Kabuto by any of the Saotome lineage which show the placement of the interior rivet so I'm curious where you all have this reference?

chris covington · May 7, 2023

13 hours ago, chris covington said:

I was going to ask, why is the front plate in the back and the Saotome rivet in the front?!? Maybe it was refitted and they fixed it backwards?

Wait, stamp that and reverse it. I shouldn’t reply at 5am before I’ve had coffee. That was my mistake. 🤣🤣🤣

Luc T · May 8, 2023

11 hours ago, carolinaskies said:

Maybe this explains why the kabuto remained unsigned, that a mistake was made and he would not affix his name to it?

I have not found any bare Kabuto by any of the Saotome lineage which show the placement of the interior rivet so I'm curious where you all have this reference?

Paul, it’s the Saotome their trademark, and thus called the Saotome byo. More info: www.Saotomebook.com

it’s certainly not a mistake, this in on purpose. Maybe it is made by a Myochin in the Saotome style, but that seems not very logical. Do you have a sharp pictire from the inside arond the tehen no ana?

carolinaskies · May 8, 2023

15 hours ago, carolinaskies said:

Maybe this explains why the kabuto remained unsigned, that a mistake was made and he would not affix his name to it?

I have not found any bare Kabuto by any of the Saotome lineage which show the placement of the interior rivet so I'm curious where you all have this reference?

I have since found reference pictures in the forum, so definitely a Saotome. I suppose any particular deviations could be due to which particular individual made this paticular suji?

Given it's present state I would venture it's a good candidate for restoration, yes? As there are so numerous variations possible to apply in all the years suji were made, given the holes along the perimeter, what combination of those accoutrements does this suggest were likely used?

uwe · May 8, 2023

Paul,

it’s most likely a candidate for restoration. To find a craftsman who can do the job professionally might be a problem, though.

The larger hole’s in the koshimaki (perimeter) are for fastening a shikoro and the small pairs on the lower edge for the ukebari (liner). The angle of the koshimaki, on the other hand, tells us something about the type of shikoro once used…

Arthur G · May 8, 2023

Judging by hole re-drilling and placement, combined with the distortion in the koshimaki that implies to me it was flattened out a bit whereas it was once likely more flared out, I think it was remounted with a hineno-jikoro.

Likely originally had something more broad like your first two examples there, such as a manju, ko-manju, etchu, etc.

That's just my opinion though.

Shogun8 · May 8, 2023

Adding to Uwe's and Arthur's comments, the angle of the koshimaki (the plate encircling the base of the hachi to which the vertical plates are attached) would suggest a hineno-jikoro like the one shown in your third picture, with a more vertical shape. If your koshimaki was originally made to accommodate a manju or ko-manju jikoro (like the ones shown in your first two pictures, with a more horizontal orientation), you should be able to see vertical cuts in the plate where the resulting flanges would have been folded downwards.

chris covington · May 8, 2023

1 hour ago, uwe said:

Paul,

it’s most likely a candidate for restoration. To find a craftsman who can do the job professionally might be a problem, though.

The larger hole’s in the koshimaki (perimeter) are for fastening a shikoro and the small pairs on the lower edge for the ukebari (liner). The angle of the koshimaki, on the other hand, tells us something about the type of shikoro once used…

Mr. Andy Mancabelli is probably one of the most qualified individuals to repair a helmet. He goes by Miura here (his art name). Check with him and see what he says.

Arthur G · May 8, 2023

1 hour ago, Shogun8 said:

Adding to Uwe's and Arthur's comments, the angle of the koshimaki (the plate encircling the base of the hachi to which the vertical plates are attached) would suggest a hineno-jikoro like the one shown in your third picture, with a more vertical shape. If your koshimaki was originally made to accommodate a manju or ko-manju jikoro (like the ones shown in your first two pictures, with a more horizontal orientation), you should be able to see vertical cuts in the plate where the resulting flanges would have been folded downwards.

Look close at where it bends after the mabizashi, and how uneven it is in parts. I don't think it was flared out much further in the past, so the cuts may not have been necessary on this one.

Miura · May 9, 2023

Hi Everybody.

Not 62 plate. Please count again.

I think it is quite early for Saotome. Possibly Iehisa. Shiten no byo too high and holes on haraidate too high to be ienari.

To Lucs point. It is difficult to tell if it was made from front to back or back to front from the photos. I can see places where it could be either, but the most visible places suggest front to back. This does not rule out Saotome though. Some Saotome makers, particularly early on, made helmets front to back similar to the Myochin makers.

I wish I could hold it in my hand to study it.