Kaburaya?

[rematron]

I’ve been keeping an eye out for a kaburaya and this item is named as such but it doesn’t look like the typical whistle-holed, turnip shaped device. In fact, it looks extremely non-aerodynamic. So what is this? Anybody seen something like this?

https://www.jauce.com/auction/q1090227449
 

[Bugyotsuji]

Not sure where to start with this Jeremy.

 

Hoping you find something perfect for you.

[Shugyosha]

Looks like a sukashi yanone with a piece of wood on the shank, perhaps one of the outsize heads that were temple offerings. 

Are you looking for the head or the whole arrow? That one isn’t capable of being shot from a bow like that as the shaft of the arrow must flex around the bow on release. 

[ROKUJURO]

Jeremy,

although it is marked KABURAYA, I don't think it is one. The shape you have in mind is what you are looking for. The depicted item might just be a display piece.

[sabiji]

2 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

 That one isn’t capable of being shot from a bow like that as the shaft of the arrow must flex around the bow on release. 

I don't know if I understood you correctly, but in trad. jap. archery no arrow has to bend around the bow.
With the draw hand I twist the string, and with the tenouchi I turn the bow out when I shoot.
In principle, I do everything that I must not do under any circumstances in western archery ;-).

[rematron]

Thanks for the responses, people.  I'm going to pass on this item.  Although, I was relatively sure it wasn't a kaburaya, I was still curious as to what it actually was.  

 

@Shugyosha, I guess ultimately, I'd be happiest with the whole arrow for display but I wouldn't turn my nose up at an unattached kaburaya arrowhead in the meantime.

[Larason2]

Whether you think the arrow is flexing through the shot or not, if its a traditional recurve bow, it is. They call it the archer's paradox:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer's_paradox

 

You don't actually have to think about that though. If you shoot a bow enough, you develop a sense of where the arrow will go based on repetition of muscles and their memory. That's what the Japanese use in kyujutsu to target.

[sabiji]

8 hours ago, Larason2 said:

Whether you think the arrow is flexing through the shot or not, if its a traditional recurve bow, it is. They call it the archer's paradox:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer's_paradox

 

You don't actually have to think about that though. If you shoot a bow enough, you develop a sense of where the arrow will go based on repetition of muscles and their memory. That's what the Japanese use in kyujutsu to target.

I agree with you that the Archers Paradox plays a big role in modern and traditional bows. The actual weapon is the arrow, the bow only serves as a medium to throw it. Therefore, the stiffness of the arrow (spine) must be matched to the energy and the construction of the bow. The best bow is of no use if the arrow does not fit. However, if the spine is correct (also in coordination with the weight of the tip), the nocking point height fits and the release of the archer is very good, an arrow would not even need feathers. 
Especially in wet weather, natural feathers collapse and hardly fulfill their stabilizing function. That's why the spin has to fit.

 

But all this plays no or an absolutely subordinate role in Jap archery, but also in the vast majority of the different Asian riding bows, because the technique of archery is completely different here.
In Kyudo (I do Heki-Ryu) I have to guide the bowstring around my body by a special technique (I pull the yumi out much further than Western bows), otherwise the glasses fly away, it hurts like hell on the chest and bow arm. 

Apart from that, this whole discussion would not play a role with a Kabura Ya anyway. With such an arrow, you don't want to hit a target at all.

[Shugyosha]

34 minutes ago, sabiji said:

Apart from that, this whole discussion would not play a role with a Kabura Ya anyway. With such an arrow, you don't want to hit a target at all.

 

Except that you do need the arrow shaft to have enough flex that it doesn't clatter into the bow itself and head off in an undesired direction. Whether you shoot off the fingers western style or off the thumb with a glove or thumb ring you still impart a sideways action to the arrow and so the arrow spine needs to match the amount of sideways action put on the arrow: typically more advanced archers can get away with less stiff arrows are their release is cleaner.

 

Archers' paradox simply refers to the fact that, in traditional archery, the tip of the arrow points somewhere other than directly at the mark and not to the flex of the arrow. In modern compound archery where the bow is shot with a mechanical release (poor technique aside) there is to all intents and purposes zero sideways flex on the arrow and the flex tends to come in an up-down direction and so plays much less of a part in arrow choice. Providing the arrow is of sufficient weight not to create a "dry fire" situation a number of spines can work adequately. In modern recurve archery where the bow has a cut-out and the arrow sits on the centre line of the bow, having the arrow pointing away from the mark to compensate for the release is far less common as the cut-out and pressure button compensate for to an extent for the archer's release.

 

Arrows can be shot without fletchings and a modern method of tuning bows to the arrow is to shoot the arrows without fletchings in order to eliminate the effect of the vanes in compensating for the sideways action put on the arrow and so that arrow spine choice is based on shaft plus point and nock weight alone with perhaps some tape added to the back of the arrow shaft to replicate the weight of the fletchings. Michele Frangilli the Italian international archer selects arrow shafts for consistency and tunes his bow with bareshafts at 70m, the Olympic distance. An unfletched shaft will spin only a small amount without fletchings which, at least in traditional styles of archery, are mounted angled or fletched helically to impart spin to the arrow. The rate of spin is very low and because of this it does not stabilise the arrow in the way that spin stabilises a bullet fired from a rifled barrel. Instead, it helps to compensate for any flaws in the arrow shaft as the rotation means that the flaw is not on one side of the arrow shaft alone during its flight which is very important where arrow shaft is a natural shaft made from wood or reed where there is not the consistency of man-made materials.

 

I'm sure you're bored by now so I'll leave it there and join Piers in wishing Jeremy well in his quest.

[Brian]

Learning a heck of a lot about archery, that I had no idea about. Wow...far more complex than I imagined. Thanks guys.

[ROKUJURO]

3 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

....Arrows can be shot without fletchings and a modern method of tuning bows to the arrow is to shoot the arrows without fletchings in order to eliminate the effect of the vanes in compensating for the sideways action....

Not completely new. In learning KYUDO, you start with shooting at a MAKIWARA (rice-straw target) with non-fletched arrows at a distance of 3 m. Any wrong move or inconsistency will be shown by the way the arrow hits the target. 

[rematron]

Just want to say, I'm not bored at all.  I love this thread.  Thanks to everyone who is jumping into the conversation.  I'm learning a lot.  If I had my way, there would be a whole new section on NMB dedicated to kyudo and Japanese archery in general!

[ROKUJURO]

Jeremy,

what could keep you from having your own KYUDO and traditional Japanese warfare/hunting archery forum? Possibly related to NMB with the assistance of Brian? Just thinking loud..... 

[1kinko]

Great! Another Japanese weapon to master…,

[rematron]

32 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Jeremy,

what could keep you from having your own KYUDO and traditional Japanese warfare/hunting archery forum? Possibly related to NMB with the assistance of Brian? Just thinking loud..... 

A valid question, Jean!  I guess I'd feel out of place setting up a forum on a subject I know very little about.  I've enjoyed archery in the past but it's been a few decades since I shot a bow.  Also, I'm not very computer oriented so that would stand in my way as well.  The NMB is already here, though.  But I'm only 50 years old and perhaps I could start small...

[Nobody]

17 hours ago, sabiji said:

.........................

In Kyudo (I do Heki-Ryu) I have to guide the bowstring around my body by a special technique (I pull the yumi out much further than Western bows), otherwise the glasses fly away, it hurts like hell on the chest and bow arm. 

..................................................

 

It reminds me of a physical education class in my university. I learned Kyudo (Heki-ryu Insai-ha - 日置流印西派) for one year.

[ROKUJURO]

I started to learn KYUDO (HEKI-RYU INSAI-HA) in the SEI FU KAN DOJO in KAWANISHI with KAWASHIMA SENSEI. It was an amazing experience! (1977)

[IBot]

On one of my annual stays at Nikko Toshogu Shrine I was mooching around in their Museum and had a good look at a rack of bows. One requirement of the Shrine is that all the priests practice a musical instrument as well as a martial art. Some of the bows were very nominal and I suspect were used for driving away demons by plucking the string, but others seemed to be real. Perhaps kyudo was practiced there at one time - when I was there it was kendo that was very much the preferred martial art.  I noticed that the string on the real bows in the rack was not down the centre line, as in Europe, but aligned with the right edge. This would have helped the paradox question considerably as well as needing the spine of the arrows to be matched to the bow. I have an Edo period bow but wouldn't dare try and string it so I cannot say how that aligned.

Ian Bottomley

[ROKUJURO]

1 hour ago, IBot said:

...... I have an Edo period bow but wouldn't dare try and string it so I cannot say how that aligned.

Ian,

that is very wise!

These old YUMI are glued with fish-scale glue which after some decades dries out and will probably cause the bow to come apart if you tried to string it.
I got such a bow (made end 1900) as farewell present from my SENSEI and he warned me not to use it. He wasn't even afraid that the bow would break but he warned me that I could get injured in this case! 

[sabiji]

2 hours ago, IBot said:

 I noticed that the string on the real bows in the rack was not down the centre line, as in Europe, but aligned with the right edge. 

Ian Bottomley

Correctly observed Ian. But, I can only speak for the Heki Ryu Insai Ha. With a correctly strung bow, the string should be to the right of the bow axis (Irikikata or Iriki no Yumi).

[rematron]

I saw on a documentary that the reason the yumi evolved into its asymmetric form is that with the grip lower down, the vibration after firing is much less than if it were centered.  Is that the primary reason?  Are there others?  I'm guessing that because the yumi is quite long that having a shorter distance to clear your horse's neck is beneficial.  The alternative is a shorter bow.

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think the primary reason for the lower grip is to shoot it from horseback.
 

And just an interesting thing about Arrowspine and what you can do if you don’t have the right Arrows. 

 

I use my variation of the Khatra when I shot with my thumb and I think it works very good and feels very smooth in the release. 
 

But I have never shoot a Yumi. 

[Shugyosha]

4 hours ago, rematron said:

I saw on a documentary that the reason the yumi evolved into its asymmetric form is that with the grip lower down, the vibration after firing is much less than if it were centered.  Is that the primary reason?  Are there others?  I'm guessing that because the yumi is quite long that having a shorter distance to clear your horse's neck is beneficial.  The alternative is a shorter bow.

It’s not necessarily a product of limb length: for any bow to perform optimally, you need for both limbs to finish the power stroke at the same instant. That can be done by tillering (balancing the strength of the top and bottom limbs). Also you need an arrow of appropriate weight so that the power is applied to the arrow rather than remaining in the bow. 
 

The Japanese did do shorter more practical bows and must have been aware of the styles of bows used in China and Korea so it’s surprising that the Yumi was never superseded. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Tillering is the process of working the limbs so that they bent even, but they don’t need to be symmetrical to each other.
Many bows have a so called positive tiller when the lower limb is shorter to lift up the arrow when shooting. 
That is necessary to avoid pushing the arrow into your hand and I think Yumi are a good example for this because of the big difference in limb length. 
The string is far more away from the handle when strung, above it, then under it. (edit: I’m talking about the brace high here but did not remember the English term first)
When you shot a bow with symmetric limbs not directly in the middle but above your hand you will see what happens   in this case you should nock the arrow higher to avoid it hitting your hand.

[ROKUJURO]

I have read that the Japanese YUMI has its length for a good reason. In Japan, there were not much cattle in former times, so the necessary materials for short powerful bows - sinew, horn and bone - were not available. On the other hand, the long draw was an old technique and obviously could not be changed. The 'native' material for bow-making in Japan was - and is -  bamboo, and with the long string draw, its properties do not allow for a shorter bow.

The above mentioned short bows which were in use in Japan were a kind of indoor game, often practised to entertain guests of the YOSHIWARA district in EDO.  That was not real archery.

I was also told that the asymmetric construction of YUMI was necessary to allow shooting from horseback, but I don't know of a similar tradition like on mainland Asia (Mongols) in warfare with bow and arrow from horseback. Normally, a rider would have to use at least one hand for the reins to 'steer' the horse. Instead, it seems to be more a training and sport practice as encountered in YABUSAME.

But I know that there are different views of this.

[rematron]

I have read that both maple and plum are good woods for bow construction.  However, maybe it was taboo to use those woods?  Bamboo was certainly available and fast growing.  It seems like tradition played a big part in the continued use of the long yumi.  

[DoTanuki yokai]

Bamboo is one of the best bow woods available except maybe osage orange and yew but the shorter mainland bows where of composite design like Jean said.

Koreans even use bamboo for the core of their composite bows.

[sabiji]

In Japan, there are various types of bows in terms of asymmetry and bow length. In the Sengakuji, short hankyu are exhibited, which are said to have been used by the Ako-Ronin. Of course, they could not just walk through Edo with long yumi. 
Jap hunting bows are also shorter and often symmetrical.  The typical long yumi only became established as a fighting weapon from the late Heian on.
A yumi has recurve and decurve characteristics, but the bowstring does not rest on the bow arms as in true recurves. Defacto the yumi is a longbow (which has nothing to do with length), more precisely a hybrid bow.
Bamboo has good tensile properties, but can withstand the compressive forces in the bow belly only moderately. However, many bow woods have this problem, which is why it is important to build limbs that are rather flat. Yew is one of the most pressure-stable woods, which is why English longbows have a D-shape. Ash also has good pressure stability, but it tires much faster in a D-shape.
In any case, for this reason in bamboo yumi is always used other hardwood.
Another reason why hardwood is used in the core and sides is the temperature sensitivity of bamboo. 
The higher the efficiency of a bow (in relation to the weight of the arrow), the more problematic the residual energy that remains in the bow. Anyone who has ever shot a poorly built longbow, even recurve bow, has the feeling of being kicked by a donkey. A yumi is also quite light, and therefore less able to absorb the energy. That's why the grip point is offset from the center of gravity of the swing.
One must also remember the following: ancient Jap war bows had significantly more draw power than today's common kyudo bows. Although parallel to this, the arrows were also heavier, yet completely different energies occurred, which had to be dealt with.

On my avatar I use a 20 kilogram (draw weight) bamboo yumi of a manufactory from Kyoto. This is actually too much for normal training. Here I use just 14 kilos.

[rematron]

Thank you, Thomas.  That is very interesting.  Your analysis clarifies a lot for me.  So, the yumi grip placement is indeed where it is primarily to not feel the residual energy of the bow as much after release of the arrow.  The clearance available when shooting from horseback is sort of a convenient byproduct of the design and not the primary reason for it.  

 

Were Japanese hunting bows made in a similar way as the yumi, as a composite of bamboo and hard wood?

Edited May 11, 2023 by rematron
more concise

[rematron]

@Brian, what do you think about having a 'kyudo/Japanese archery' section under the "Related Subjects" area along with 'Katchu' and 'Military Swords of Japan'?  In such a designated space, we could explore and learn more about this fascinating subject.  It would also be a good place for people to show pics of their arrowhead collections and how to spot real ones from fake, etc. - as well as other related collectible items on the market.