The Okegawa-dou: Deconstructing Pop History

[Iekatsu]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:44 PM, Arthur G said:

All evidence points to the Kin-dou and the Mogami-dou being developments in Eastern Japan, likely around the Kanto Region. However, the concept spread across the country over the next decade or so.

Interesting discussion, could you please outline the evidence that points to an eastern origin?

[IBot]

It was the Onin war that did much to encourage the development of okegawa dou. As you will remember, the war broke out because there was a family dispute over succession. Being childless the Shogun had named his brother as his successor only to find his wife then bore a son. Nobles around the country flocked with  their armies to Kyoto to support one side or the other, resulting in some ten years of largely urban warfare that failed to resolve anything. With their forces depleted and exhausted, they returned to their domains only to find they had been usurped by those they had left in charge; the classic situation known as gekokujo. 

 

It was the actions of the usurpers that led to the changes in the armour of the time. Having enjoyed the good-life while their lords were away fighting in Kyoto, they realised they were going to have to put up a fight to retain their life style despite the fact that their lord's armies were depleted and weakened. What they needed were their own forces. This led to the recruitment of peasants, farmers and others known as ashigaru, spurred on by the promise of improving their lot. Lacking the years of training the use of swords, naginata and other traditional weapons demanded, they needed a weapon they could use effectively and that proved to be the simple spear. 

 

The samurai the ashigaru had to face wore their traditional lamellar armours where the scales were held into rows by two leather thongs, the shita toji, laced through the lower four holes in each column of holes in the scales. It was a construction that worked well against a cut from a sword, a naginata or the low-energy impact of an arrow, but one where these thongs simply broke when subject to the concentrated thrust of a spear. The solution was to replace the rows of scales with strips of iron / steel, hinged initially in four places but still laced together vertically with braid. These armours still had the defect of incorporating a considerable quantity of braid that absorbed water in bad weather, increasing in weight and being difficult to dry out in camp. The final step was to eliminate the lacing and the multiplicity of small hinges by riveting the rows to each other and fitting long hinges connecting the rows. This gave gave an even stronger dou, one we now call an okegawa dou.

Ian Bottomley

[chris covington]

26 minutes ago, IBot said:

It was the Onin war that did much to encourage the development of okegawa dou. As you will remember, the war broke out because there was a family dispute over succession. Being childless the Shogun had named his brother as his successor only to find his wife then bore a son. Nobles around the country flocked with  their armies to Kyoto to support one side or the other, resulting in some ten years of largely urban warfare that failed to resolve anything. With their forces depleted and exhausted, they returned to their domains only to find they had been usurped by those they had left in charge; the classic situation known as gekokujo. 

 

It was the actions of the usurpers that led to the changes in the armour of the time. Having enjoyed the good-life while their lords were away fighting in Kyoto, they realised they were going to have to put up a fight to retain their life style despite the fact that their lord's armies were depleted and weakened. What they needed were their own forces. This led to the recruitment of peasants, farmers and others known as ashigaru, spurred on by the promise of improving their lot. Lacking the years of training the use of swords, naginata and other traditional weapons demanded, they needed a weapon they could use effectively and that proved to be the simple spear. 

 

The samurai the ashigaru had to face wore their traditional lamellar armours where the scales were held into rows by two leather thongs, the shita toji, laced through the lower four holes in each column of holes in the scales. It was a construction that worked well against a cut from a sword, a naginata or the low-energy impact of an arrow, but one where these thongs simply broke when subject to the concentrated thrust of a spear. The solution was to replace the rows of scales with strips of iron / steel, hinged initially in four places but still laced together vertically with braid. These armours still had the defect of incorporating a considerable quantity of braid that absorbed water in bad weather, increasing in weight and being difficult to dry out in camp. The final step was to eliminate the lacing and the multiplicity of small hinges by riveting the rows to each other and fitting long hinges connecting the rows. This gave gave an even stronger dou, one we now call an okegawa dou.

Ian Bottomley

Mr. Bottomley,

 

Thank you for the detailed consideration. Arthur mentioned iyozane in the 1400s. Is this the same thing you are describing? I sometimes get all of the terms confused.

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Luc T]

Iyozane occured during the Nanbokucho period

[Arthur G]

On 4/29/2023 at 4:39 AM, Viper6924 said:

A lot of info to process, Arthur  New input on old ”ideas” are always welcome. When it comes to history, be it Japanese or other, we can't afford to stop investigating. Otherwise stagnation sets in. Looking back at books  written 10-15 years ago, reveals that the process of gaining new ground, indeed moves in the right direction. Albeit slow at times…

When we come to the topic about what is of Japanese true origin, the one important thing that comes to mind is Shinto. Apart from that, I like to think of the Japanese as the unrivaled masters at incorporating forriegn ideas. coming in from the mainland. Bad ideas not in par with the Japanese mindset, was discarded quicker than you can say sayonara. But if the ”import” took root in the heart of the locals, with locals I of course mean the top 1- 2% of the community, assimilation and more importantly, development followed. We see this local improvement everywhere in Japanese culture.

Of course this also had an huge impact on the development of Japanese arms and armor development. Everything from the curve of a blade, horsemanship and general development of arms and armor came from abroad. into something better and much more effective.

I have a 10 monme Kishu matchlock made in 1863. It's the absolute pinnacle of perfection when it comes to matchlocks. Compare it to the western version would be like comparing a rusty bike to a Ferrari

It's of course another question if this stubborn attachment to matchlocks was a sound policy, whilst the west was producing Winchester repeating rifles during the same period.

Nothing creates develpment like war. Nothing! Look at Ukraine. messangers of death” for the invaders. Just like the Japanese have been doing for over a thousand years.

I will keep following this and other threads like it with great interest, as there are nuggets of gold within that will carry history forward.

So keep at it, Arthur 😉

 

Jan

 

 

 

 

 

 

That means a lot coming from you Jan  That encouragement means the world to me.

In this early stage of my career I'm investing most of my time in study and research before I put hammer to steel. I realized whatever I produce will influence the public's perception of this time; so, I gotta get it right from the get go is my thinking.

The amount of different things I have to study is a bit overwhelming at times; with our recreation of Tsuda-ryu for example, it's sprawled out into a huge web of topics. It's not enough to for our team to just look at guns and scrolls. We're having to study so many things from esoteric buddhism to armor in different regions to trade lanes and political ties. I'm glad I chose to do armor alongside the matchlocks as they are so inherently entwined in so many regards; it's not merely defense against firearms, but armor being adapted to fit gunners, and even shared production methods.

I'm hoping my generation will be able to make our own contributions and build off the work of preceding generations; and when it's our turn, be able to pass it on to the next.

[Arthur G]

8 hours ago, Iekatsu said:

Interesting discussion, could you please outline the evidence that points to an eastern origin?

Great question!

I don't have a huge amount to say on this as my focus is generally on the Kansai region, but, here's the basics.

Eastern armor has a tendency towards being heavy duty and incorporating far more steel/iron than Western armor (Western Japan of course, not talking about foreign things). There was greater accessibility to it for one thing. The other big influence is doctrine. The East made much more use of cavalry than the West, whereas Western doctrine relies a lot more on fighting on foot and in many cases using skirmisher warfare. Most people fall into the trap of "which armor is the best?" and it really should be phrased as "which armor is the best for which type of warfare?".

When we look at the oldest all metal dou, they come from the East generally speaking. The earliest descriptions and orders that have survived also come from there. 

Here is an example of what I mean when I say we need to look at doctrine and why certain armor develops the way it does. When I look at Saika-bachi, I see now so many subtle design features made for the sake of gunnery, especially with what we have discovered so far recreating Tsuda-ryu. The shape of the mabizashi conforms to the shape of the stocks and our hold for example. A mask is not conducive to accurate shooting due to the lack of a cheek weld; the solution was to give the face as much coverage as possible while not interfering with the stock, hence the interesting variety of cheek guards we see. The coverage afforded, the emphasis on certain points of the helmet in protection, and the shape of the shikoro conform perfectly to one of our stances that utilizes cover.



When aiming at the gunner, all you really see is the top of his head. The okitenugui seem to largely have used a wide single lame shikoro at this time, which won't interfere with this position. The uchidashi work and the strong join of the top plate at the forehead gives great protection against projectiles from this angle as well, with the slope being perfect for deflection.

Now, would this type of helmet be useful for cavalry in Eastern Japan? Certainly not  There are other factors that influence Saika equipment such as making things as light weight as possible, including the matchlocks. This aids mobility on the battlefield as well as foot transportation of equipment over long distances. The gunners from Kishuu we have discovered did not make use of large line formations but rather focused on individual shooters aided by assistants.

My point of this tangent is you have to get as specific as you can with studying all of this, and look at it first and foremost as military equipment. Things have become too artsy in this community I feel and it leads people in a very bad direction on a whole lot of levels. As my teacher says "Armor is armor"; think of its function.

[IBot]

Chris,  No - iyozane were wide scales assembled with virtually no overlap. Because of the latter they had to be laced onto a thick leather strip to hold them into a row that was then wrapped in thin leather and lacquered. I have a Momoyama dou made from them where the leather cover has been damaged and you can see that all of the scales have the full compliment of holes but the leathger covering was only pierced where the lacing was needed.

Ian Bottomley

[Shogun8]

18 hours ago, Arthur G said:

Great question!

I don't have a huge amount to say on this as my focus is generally on the Kansai region, but, here's the basics.

Eastern armor has a tendency towards being heavy duty and incorporating far more steel/iron than Western armor (Western Japan of course, not talking about foreign things). There was greater accessibility to it for one thing. The other big influence is doctrine. The East made much more use of cavalry than the West, whereas Western doctrine relies a lot more on fighting on foot and in many cases using skirmisher warfare. Most people fall into the trap of "which armor is the best?" and it really should be phrased as "which armor is the best for which type of warfare?".

When we look at the oldest all metal dou, they come from the East generally speaking. The earliest descriptions and orders that have survived also come from there. 

Here is an example of what I mean when I say we need to look at doctrine and why certain armor develops the way it does. When I look at Saika-bachi, I see now so many subtle design features made for the sake of gunnery, especially with what we have discovered so far recreating Tsuda-ryu. The shape of the mabizashi conforms to the shape of the stocks and our hold for example. A mask is not conducive to accurate shooting due to the lack of a cheek weld; the solution was to give the face as much coverage as possible while not interfering with the stock, hence the interesting variety of cheek guards we see. The coverage afforded, the emphasis on certain points of the helmet in protection, and the shape of the shikoro conform perfectly to one of our stances that utilizes cover.



When aiming at the gunner, all you really see is the top of his head. The okitenugui seem to largely have used a wide single lame shikoro at this time, which won't interfere with this position. The uchidashi work and the strong join of the top plate at the forehead gives great protection against projectiles from this angle as well, with the slope being perfect for deflection.

Now, would this type of helmet be useful for cavalry in Eastern Japan? Certainly not  There are other factors that influence Saika equipment such as making things as light weight as possible, including the matchlocks. This aids mobility on the battlefield as well as foot transportation of equipment over long distances. The gunners from Kishuu we have discovered did not make use of large line formations but rather focused on individual shooters aided by assistants.

My point of this tangent is you have to get as specific as you can with studying all of this, and look at it first and foremost as military equipment. Things have become too artsy in this community I feel and it leads people in a very bad direction on a whole lot of levels. As my teacher says "Armor is armor"; think of its function.

That's a really great analysis for the "raison d'etre" and design of the okitenugui, Arthur. It's very interesting to hear how its design features might relate to its usage by gunners.

 

 

[Arthur G]

4 hours ago, Shogun8 said:

That's a really great analysis for the "raison d'etre" and design of the okitenugui, Arthur. It's very interesting to hear how its design features might relate to its usage by gunners.

 

 

I think it's very important to think of these in terms of usage and not to see them as static objects.

In essence, I'd advocate to always think of these in terms of motion. It's hard to describe what I mean with this, but, we get so used to seeing them sitting stoically on stands that they become statues in our subconscious I think, whereas it's a very dynamic object at its core.

A big part of the reason I am focusing on reproduction and doing it in modern sizes is so these can be experienced the way they were meant to be. It's the same with the matchlocks as well.

[Luc T]

There is a kind of Darwinism in the evolution of armor and of course kabuto. If they did not protect as ment when they were made, they dissapeared.  A big difference with edo stuff, where status was more important.

[Arthur G]

Absolutely agree Luc, which is why the old stuff appeals to me.

When it loses its original purpose, I can't help but lose interest. I guess a huge part of me just isn't able to appreciate the artistic side of it all.

[YOJIMBO]

7 hours ago, Arthur G said:

Když to ztratí svůj původní účel, nemůžu si pomoct a ztrácím zájem. Myslím, že velká část mě prostě není schopna ocenit uměleckou stránku toho všeho.

just as an aside: how are you with swords? they will probably be useless too.

[Iekatsu]

On 5/1/2023 at 4:57 AM, Arthur G said:

Eastern armor has a tendency towards being heavy duty and incorporating far more steel/iron than Western armor (Western Japan of course, not talking about foreign things). There was greater accessibility to it for one thing. The other big influence is doctrine. The East made much more use of cavalry than the West, whereas Western doctrine relies a lot more on fighting on foot and in many cases using skirmisher warfare. Most people fall into the trap of "which armor is the best?" and it really should be phrased as "which armor is the best for which type of warfare?".

When we look at the oldest all metal dou, they come from the East generally speaking. The earliest descriptions and orders that have survived also come from there. 

Seems a little subjective, can you give some specific examples that can be dated, I ask because that type of Dou was also common in central and southern Japan, enough examples surive to imply that they were in extensive use in those regions.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

13 hours ago, Arthur G said:

Absolutely agree Luc, which is why the old stuff appeals to me.

When it loses its original purpose, I can't help but lose interest. I guess a huge part of me just isn't able to appreciate the artistic side of it all.

Agreed, I really prefer fully functional armors than those that are made just for looking good. Luckily, Samurai armors are effective at doing both. There's a very interesting marriage between functionality and aesthetics, which is all the better. But I'm also less fan of things like embossed armors due to the structural issues it causes. Thanks to the varied styles in crafting, urushi colors, odoshi colors, kabuto shapes, kusari types and more, an armor can get really great looking while staying fully functional.

I'd go as far as saying that the appearance of the armor adds to the functionality, due to the psychological effect and appeal to mythology that parts of these armors use. And there's a lot that can be added to an armor to make it better looking (and scarier to an enemy) without sacrificing protection, such as adding horns, having a beak-like nose for the menpo, etc.

 

I'm also curious about the effectiveness of Nio-Dou, if I'm not mistaken, these are Hotoke-Dou with papier mâché between the metal and the lacquer, right ? Or could they be done by embossing, ruining the protective abilities of the armor ?

[Luc T]

2 hours ago, FrenchBreadPrime said:

Agreed, I really prefer fully functional armors than those that are made just for looking good. Luckily, Samurai armors are effective at doing both. There's a very interesting marriage between functionality and aesthetics, which is all the better. But I'm also less fan of things like embossed armors due to the structural issues it causes. Thanks to the varied styles in crafting, urushi colors, odoshi colors, kabuto shapes, kusari types and more, an armor can get really great looking while staying fully functional.

I'd go as far as saying that the appearance of the armor adds to the functionality, due to the psychological effect and appeal to mythology that parts of these armors use. And there's a lot that can be added to an armor to make it better looking (and scarier to an enemy) without sacrificing protection, such as adding horns, having a beak-like nose for the menpo, etc.

 

I'm also curious about the effectiveness of Nio-Dou, if I'm not mistaken, these are Hotoke-Dou with papier mâché between the metal and the lacquer, right ? Or could they be done by embossing, ruining the protective abilities of the armor ?

dear Tidiane, you are right of course about the aesthetics, esotheric or the psychological impact of armor.  That's what makes Japanese armor so interesting.

About the Nio-dou, those I saw from the momoyama or early edo period were uchidashi, no moriage nor papier maché.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

1 hour ago, Luc T said:

dear Tidiane, you are right of course about the aesthetics, esotheric or the psychological impact of armor.  That's what makes Japanese armor so interesting.

About the Nio-dou, those I saw from the momoyama or early edo period were uchidashi, no moriage nor papier maché.

Ah, that is fair, thank you for the clarification, Luc. Too bad then, though I'm curious if there are cases of those made in ways that wouldn't hamper the defensive capabilities of the armor. Then I'll say that Nio Dou are the exception to what I said above haha. I really like the concept of appearing as something otherwordly, and the Nio Dou Gusoku usually are great for that result, plus they're reminding of Greek bell cuirasses.

[Shogun8]

14 hours ago, Iekatsu said:

Seems a little subjective, can you give some specific examples that can be dated, I ask because that type of Dou was also common in central and southern Japan, enough examples surive to imply that they were in extensive use in those regions.

I think that the very name - Mogami - speaks to its origin from Mōgami in the Tohoku part of Japan. The Uesugi had several examples and of course Yoshiaki Mogami wore his namesake dou. As has already been discussed and illustrated, the mogamido is also clearly a precursor to the Yukishita dou (itself a prototypical product of Eastern Japan), with the angular riveted okegawa dou being the transitional piece in between. Several Japanese books reference the Tohoku origins of the mogamido.

[Iekatsu]

My argument is that the evolution to Ita-mono Dou is likely not so clear cut and probably happened in multiple regions at roughly the same time, as Arthur said himself its not a massive leap to transition from scales to plates and it was a logical step as the demand for armour increased in the period in question.

There is no doubt that that a style of Ita-mono Dou was produced in Mogami and surrounding regions, there being examples in the Uesugi collection and the famous example donated by Takeda Katsuyori, but this is a relatively isolated area of Japan in the 1560-70's it seems improbable that the style would have spread to the farthest reaches of Japan in a mere decade and if it did why did we not see a proliferation of other eastern style armour elements at the same time. 

Arthur has provided an example of a Ita-mono Mogami style Dou owned by Inaba Yoshimichi, that was likely manufactured in the Kansai region, likely in the the late 1570's.

Arthur also posted the famous Shimazu Ita-mono Mogami Dou now at the Royal Armouries, we know roughly when left Japan (early 1580's), but the date of manufacture is less clear.

In Ōyamazumi shrine there are 7 Ita-mono Mogami style Dou in their collection, likely the most in a single location, more research has to be done to date these examples.

The Dou below was a gift form Kobayakawa Takakage to Murakami Yoshimitsu to celebrate his sons Yoshisuke's coming of age, unfortunately it's a little hard to nail down a date because we don't know the birth date or age at death of Yoshisuke, but its likely sometime in the 1570's.




As for the term Mogami Dou, naming conventions always have to be taken with a grain of salt, it is clear that this term was in use during the Edo period (Sakakibara Kozan utilises it) and it was accepted that Mogami was the origin of this style of Dou, but by this stage you are looking at a Kanto centric world and if we were to take everything at face value from this period the Myochin included everyone and their linage extended into pre-history etc. I think it is important to challenge established knowledge and look forward to this discussion expanding.

[Iekatsu]

Here we can see some examples from Ōyamazumi shrine. Sorry about the poor quality of the images.

   
 

[Iekatsu]

More examples, again from Ōyamazumi-jinja.

  

[Arthur G]

No the image quality is fine! These are actually quite excellent photos.

Do you have information on each individual example? I'd greatly appreciate it 

[Iekatsu]

Unfortunately not Arthur, further research will have to be conducted to see if there are records that relate to the donation of each of the examples above. Ōyamazumi-jinja has a long history of sword and armour donation dating back to the Heian period.

[Shogun8]

The JAS Grand Tour in November will spend a day at Oyamazumi - akin to Mecca for katchuphiles!

[Arthur G]

I'm quite familiar with oyamazumi-jinja guys, I just haven't looked over these specific examples in detail.

As much information as possible on these would be appreciated. They look Western in origin to my eye rather than Eastern. Any dates or locations would help!

In regards to your thoughts earlier Thomas, sorry for the late reply but I've been thinking a lot about it. 

Personally, for me, it would be too much of a coincidence for it to have developed on its own across the country at the same time. Local areas all made kabuto, but few areas produced dou in large volumes. Nara being one of the biggest of course. In my opinion, and of course all of this is conjecture, it would be easier to see it developing in the East and some production center like Nara catching wind of it, with it spreading from there as a focal point.

My group spends a lot of time researching maritime trade lanes and the spread of technologies during this time, and it's been quite surprising. Things got around and influenced each other far more than any of us had anticipated. I'd like to leave it at that though for now in regards to the trade lanes as there is a lot we plan on publishing in the future.

[Luc T]

it's all a very logical evolution, from haramaki or domaru to marudou.  

Look at this one.  marudou.   c14 prooved +-1575.

it was found  on the east side of lake Biwa, where it popped up in the seventies.

hon kozane, tsutsumi and sugake laced.

 

The point is that a lot more mogamido ar found in the east of Japan, in high and low quality.  most of the time, they are executed very sober, as can be expected.

in the Yamato and Owari region however, they are rather high ranking stuff, with a lot of colours.

[Arthur G]

Now that catches my eye Luc!

Is it a kindou or is there leather mixed in there?

[Luc T]

2 hours ago, Arthur G said:

Now that catches my eye Luc!

Is it a kindou or is there leather mixed in there?

I guess 60% leather.  It’s extremely light.

[Bazza]

On 28th April Arthur G wrote:

=================================================================

On 4/28/2023 at 3:31 PM, Bazza said:

Loved all this Arthur et al.  Looking forward to the zunari write up as I have one by Haruta Yoshihisa.

 

Barry Thomas

aka BaZZa.

If you don't mind my asking, when was Yoshihisa active? And could you post some photos?

=================================================================

Arthur,

I believe he was active in the Momoyama period.  Piers san once wrote that there were 15 YOSHIHISA smiths mentioned with those two characters. To canvass the discussions around this smith put HARUTA YOSHIHISA into the Forum search field.  In the result is a thread from years ago that for the present discussion may have been missed:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/26078-phase-composition-mapping-of-a-17th-century-Japanese-helmet/#comment-263581

I have attached photos of my helmet.  An interesting observation is that the plate that goes over the top is thick at the front tapering to thin at the back.

 

BaZZa.

 

  

 

   

 

 

   

 

 

   

 

[Arthur G]

Well Barry, I gotta hand it to you, you just filled in one of the last gaps I needed to show the evolution of the "modern" zunari  

You have something quite special here, which goes into what I describe as the final transitional era before the modern Edo style zunari.

I'd personally place this in the 1590's. A couple of things here, would you mind measuring the thickness where possible? And can you see if the koshimaki has been redrilled at any point in its lifetime? If not then this is very exciting indeed.

It's rare that things get posted these days that get me excited. There are lots of fake ko-zunari and things of that nature in circulation right now, so I usually expect disappointment.

I mostly focus on the works of Mitsusada from this era due to my focus on Saika-bachi, but that hari-bachi is one I've been trying to track down more photos of for a while now. You can see it's clearly made by the same hand as your zunari.

When I do the sequel thread to this, focusing on the evolution of the zunari, would you mind if I include your example?

 

 

[Bazza]

Well Arthur, I gotta hand it to you, you just made a humble collector's day for saving something I saw years ago on a stall and thought it was special enough to acquire.  In truth I know very little about armour despite having three tatty suits and one very nice ensemble over the decades.  However, on the day I was helping a mate out at a gun show I took time out to wander around.  A very good mate of mine had a table and as I passed by I saw a familiar shape ('FLASH' light bulb moment time out...)

 

I dug out some old files and rediscovered I acquired this kabuto in August 2010 and wrote it up at the time.  Rather than ramble on here, for those interested I have attached this old document.

 

Arthur, of course you can use anything I have in my archive files.  I guess 'I'll be back...'

 

Barry T

 

A LUVLY GUN SHOW FIND - edit added 10 May 2023.doc