Japanese-made fakes

[chris covington]

Hello all,

 

Per Mr. Grey's suggestion, I wanted to start a page dedicated to fake or questionable armor that is coming out of Japan. I've got a few pieces in mind and I'll try to contribute when I can. 

 

Best regards,

Chris

[b.hennick]

Do you have the URL so we can see what you have accomplished?

 

[Brian]

I think he means this thread :-)

[chris covington]

Yes, sorry "thread" would have been a better word. I'm not as interweb-term savvy. Sorry.

 

So, I'll start out with these helmets.  

 

 

 

 

 

A helmet of this exact type was a topic of discussion about a year ago on Facebook. A collector was showing off his helmet. He said it was pretty thin metal and fairly small. He had it “expertly vetted” and was told it was a very early and rare, rurally made okitenugui. I won’t share the collector’s helmet, but it was of the identical type; the same hand made it. Needless to say, the conversation went quiet when, after I found these two matching helmets on yahoo auctions. As I’m sure anyone who has followed yahoo auctions knows these helmets pop up frequently. They are not rare. The only thing early about them is that they might be early 21st century (although, I think they are actually from the 1970s-1990s).

 

What are some red flags, beyond that they are identical, besides some decorative elements like spike placement? The most bizarre is the seam between the eyebrows. You can’t see it as well in these photos, but there is a seam between the eyebrows. This makes zero structural sense. This is the most important part of the helmet for defense purposes, yet the armorsmith put the weakest joint there. No historical armorsmith would be so foolish. This is likely done to facilitate raising the eyebrows and/or fitting the ring to the top plates.

 

Speaking of; the top plate is also suspect. Modern guys make the top plate first, they then craft the helmet based around that top plate. The top plate is crazy difficult to make correctly, so they hammer out a plate that is good enough. You’ll see one of two solutions to fit it on, this method, which is to make the top rather flat. This creates that sharp angle between the mabizashi and the top which is structurally unsound. The top plate is too flat, so it creates this odd look. The other option is internal, but you’ll see modern makers use it, where they cut tabs into the top of the mabizashi, to facilitate attachment.

 

The general trend for guys faking okitenugui is: spikes equals okitenugui. More spikes mean more exotic and fearsome. If we look at authentic okitenugui though, the spikes aren’t just decorative, they are rivets and serve a functional/mechanical purpose. If you look at these examples, we see spikes added haphazardly. One example has spikes on the top, but it is a single plate top what would they be riveting together? Spiked rivets would be used to rivet two-piece top plates together. These spikes are decorative. The other example has the spikes on the sides. Again, based to how this is constructed, with the unsound seam in the front, there is no reason to have spikes there. What are they connecting/riveting together? Nothing!

 

Look at the spikes themselves. They are cut out of square stock. They are mounted on a strip of steel and that strip is attached to the helmet. This serves no purpose again, other than more spikes makes it look cool. Now the collector’s helmet does not have the extra spikes, to its credit.

 

Now let’s compare these helmets to authentic okitenugui. There are the original Saika made okitenugui and there are the slightly later Haruta made helmets I'd like to look at. Even though they are different schools of manufacture, they follow the same logic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

First off, there are no seams at the forehead, again the single most important part of the helmet for actual defense! To be fair one has a bullet hole there, though! The seams are always on the sides. To reinforce that spot there are kirigane plates added. This doubles the thickness in the weakest possible spots. The fake helmet above with the side spikes is emulating this, but incorrectly with an odd row of spikes, and since the seam isn’t at the sides it is 100% superfluous.

 

Next look at the top plates and how/where they attach. The dishing on these tops is much deeper which creates a less intense angle. This is structurally sounder (the closer to 90° an angle is the weaker it becomes, just watch some episodes of Forged in Fire to see failures). This sound construction design comes from making the front and sides first, and then making and fitting the top to it, instead of the reverse.

 

Each of the spikes, or on Haruta the domed rivets that are more like vestigial spikes, are structural. They are functional rivets, and each one is individually placed. There is none of the odd strip of metal with spikes added on.

 

Another key point of evaluation, although not found on these, is what are the rivets made out of? Most modern made (ones without ill intent) and modern fakes use roofing nails. That should be a red flag.

 

I think we need to really study armor, train our eyes, and get past the initial shock and awe of something cool and exotic. Evaluate it, does this construction method make any sense for a piece of practical military kit (which these original okitenugui certainly were) or is this purely decorative? Then, if we determine it had no military value and it is just armor shaped sculpture, who made it, why, and when? There are modern makers who make kit for teppotai and budo use. There are guys who are making armors as total fakes to sell as authentic at auction sites. There are guys in the grey. Before buying something, do some homework. Is it really an early, rural made, rare okitenugui or do these things pop up on yahoo auction every so often (again I found these two, nearly identical to the collector’s helmet, within minutes of searching). Huge sums of cash swap hands, do some research before parting with your money. Supporting fakes and fakers keeps them in business. It damages the market and does financial harm to people.

 

Best regards,

Chris  

[b.hennick]

Thanks Chris!

[Luc T]

What do we have now…

[uwe]

Thanks Chris!

 

Note, there are some good oki’s out there made by the gendai smith Ototsugu!

[Alex A]

Interesting Chris, im now sat here wondering if the forgers iron out the errors such as the seam at the front,  will they become so difficult to detect that even experts have trouble working them out ?

 

You mention that you have seen a few on Yahoo.  Maybe one or two go under the radar but then seeing more and more leads to red alert warning to educated buyers. Its like Ebay where you see so many of those modern cast tsuba from China floating about.

 

Was on another forum a while ago asking about fakes and one guy stated "We try and not make them any more knowledgeable than we have too". Some folks really take it serious, information to fraudsters..

 

I guess at the end of the day its the naive that will take the brunt, as always.

[chris covington]

4 hours ago, Alex A said:

Interesting Chris, im now sat here wondering if the forgers iron out the errors such as the seam at the front,  will they become so difficult to detect that even experts have trouble working them out ?

 

You mention that you have seen a few on Yahoo.  Maybe one or two go under the radar but then seeing more and more leads to red alert warning to educated buyers. Its like Ebay where you see so many of those modern cast tsuba from China floating about.

 

Was on another forum a while ago asking about fakes and one guy stated "We try and not make them any more knowledgeable than we have too". Some folks really take it serious, information to fraudsters..

 

I guess at the end of the day its the naive that will take the brunt, as always.

 

That is a problem I have considered. When you educate people the frauds get an education, too. But, do we let people sit around ignorant? I am a firm believer that the better educated a population is, the stronger it is. Frauds tend to like to keep the population dumb, or only half educated, because they are easier to take advantage of. 

 

Now, there will always be frauds, but one thing about them is that they are out to make a quick buck. To do okitenigui correctly they need better skills. There is an order of operations when you create these, yes, but there is also a raw skill level that these guys don’t seem to have.

 

Elsewhere, a friend posited that these helmets may be movie props, that have escaped into the market. If that is the case, the onus falls to the sellers who hock them as antiques and the “experts” who will go on a limb and vouch for these things. Does anyone recognize these from a Kurosawa film (Ran maybe)? My collection of Kurosawa films is on VHS, and I don’t have a VCR at the moment. 🤣

[chris covington]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:04 AM, Luc T said:

What do we have now…

 

Ohhh... tell us more about this fellow. From first blink, without studying it, it certainly looks like an odd duck. 

[Alex A]

Cheers Chris, the real ones above have that aged look, real age.

 

Also, agree about educating the folk that want to learn. Its good of you to do so and hopefully may well prevent someone being taken for a ride.. 

 

Ps, the one that Luc put on here, newbie thoughts, it just looks too much.

[chris covington]

2 hours ago, chris covington said:

 

Ohhh... tell us more about this fellow. From first blink, without studying it, it certainly looks like an odd duck. 

I actually rather like the fukurin on the mabizashi.

[Luc T]

In the early edo period,  the Myochin started to copy Nanbokucho and Kamakura kabuto.    They also copied Gitsu and Nobuie.   But.   They always made the same mistake, they exaggerated all the old features.    This abalone is a joke.   Bad proportions, ugly,  fluffy forging,  and over the top.  I wonder where it was made, Tadjikistan?  Tora bora mountains?   Or Bangkok?   I vote outside Japan.

[GN174]

I would agree outside of Japan, there is a seller on Juace who regularly posts Kawari Kabuto. I will post the next one when it comes up, they are from the images very good looking (too good) and do attract bids. The person making them clearly has a skill set and its a shame they are passing them off a earlier pieces to attract higher prices. They have talent they would probably still get sales if they marketed honestly 

[YOJIMBO]

On 5/17/2023 at 5:25 PM, uwe said:

Thanks Chris!

 

Note, there are some good oki’s out there made by the gendai smith Ototsugu!

OTOTSUGU

[Winchester]

I have been having the same question, thank you for your timely post. I hope this note more contributes to the discussion than be a digression, OP. 

 

This is something I am questioning: https://www.ebay.com/itm/155577992487?hash=item24392bc527:g:37IAAOSwijVkZkHo&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4FFCLK75YTNmmcdq08OedRY3ekfaognjmf3N96WxD60nNDNbLlZOafFcvj%2BkTvWalIvGooQBfMdlL2289gJZOkJg8G1bvG9X30waYinmK71FBPK11jflc0NLMfpJF8f50J5C17lHrpSHo1autHWBI1cVInb0LPdeocsng9Yw3AayXwmiZflnezQ%2FTJNPYy%2Bebe%2BbG4SJev9YUYbv1agxc46qmhD38VqMHQ3A6BA4GVW3id4jAU2X9ahRcabPKCIXETG1cAZUozWkYI5DBUrznkI9Sf2Og8BAZ9gLzPBk5Yop|tkp%3ABk9SR7al87aOYg

 

Ebay Listing for Armor

 

Thank you in advance for any feedback that we can all learn from.

[uwe]

Sorry Brian,

the pictures are very small and blurry. So I can’t say much about this piece. Some characteristics, however, looking very odd, from what I can see.

It starts by the tare and it’s lacing. Furthermore the orientation of the orekugi….etc. 

My gut feeling says “questionable”, but without better pics, we can’t be sure!

 

[Iekatsu]

Brian,

It is a modern reproduction, not a period piece.

[GN174]

few links to one seller with a number of new items looks like a lot of work went into them and so not without a value

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/d1095849776

https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1095845877

https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1095853878

https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1095834547

https://www.jauce.com/auction/n1095836776

 

[Luc T]

Indeed, all fakes!

[chris covington]

9 hours ago, GN174 said:

few links to one seller with a number of new items looks like a lot of work went into them and so not without a value

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/d1095849776

https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1095845877

https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1095853878

https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1095834547

https://www.jauce.com/auction/n1095836776

 

Graham,

 

Those are… interesting, to say the least. The okitenugui (assuming it was being sold as modern work, not fraudulently) I could forgive as a modern smith’s attempt at replicating something. A less talented version of our own Arthur Goetz, if you will. Those mempo though? Wow! Those are something else!

 

There is so much to address with these, but I lack the time at the moment.

 

Chris

[Luc T]

Crap!

[Arthur G]

11 hours ago, GN174 said:

few links to one seller with a number of new items looks like a lot of work went into them and so not without a value

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/d1095849776

https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1095845877

https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1095853878

https://www.jauce.com/auction/o1095834547

https://www.jauce.com/auction/n1095836776

 

I wonder how much this guy spends on acids in a year....

[Miura]

Here is somewhat of a sad story. Back in February of this year a group of artifacts from a relatively famous sengoku period samurai started popping up for sale on Yahoo, local auctions etc.  I did what I could to get a hold of the armor pieces as I knew they had significance because they belonged to a huge guy.  Around 2m in height huge.  All of the items had the same family crest on them in the form of a gilt coppery brass kanamono that was a very unique christian kamon.  VERY sadly, the dou which originally was decked out with these decorative mons all over had been vandalized by a faker who wanted to put them on a composite armor composed of some original pieces and this fake helmet. That way if they all had the antiqu mons on them it would look like a non-composite armor. But it was done at the expense of an important christian daimyo's armor.  Just another reason you should support properly trained restorers. 

[Miura]

By the way, the helmet and mempo are very recent manufacture.

[Arthur G]

23 hours ago, Miura said:

By the way, the helmet and mempo are very recent manufacture.

Reminds me a bit of the fake Saika stuff posted above. If it's the same guy, dude really loves hitting stuff with acid...

[YOJIMBO]

more fakes from Japan 

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/d1101659687 , this seller always sell fakes mixed with some original parts

 

 

[Shogun8]

Wow. Just wow.

[Gakusee]

On 5/17/2023 at 12:04 PM, Luc T said:

What do we have now…

 

Hi Luc 

 

 

May I please sense check your thoughts on and impressions of the kawari kabuto that I saw on social media below? It looks definitely better executed than the one you originally linked. However, to me the shape is again rather preponderant and bulky. Some recent lacquer work on it too. 
 

Thank you. 

 

[YOJIMBO]

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

 

Ahoj Luc 

 

 

Mohu si prosím ověřit vaše myšlenky a dojmy z kawari kabuto, které jsem viděl na sociálních sítích níže? Vypadá to rozhodně lépe provedené než to, které jste původně propojili. Nicméně pro mě je tvar opět spíše převládající a objemný. Některé nedávné laky na tom také pracují. 
 

Děkuji. 

 

it's a longer debate, but it was sold by a seller in Japan, who is overwhelmingly counterfeiting. ( the first kaburo )