What on earth is going on with shinsa?

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Bruno said:

Hi Bruce,

 

It would be of interest to open a new special topic taking a census of all showa-to papered by NBTHK or NTHK, wouldn't be?

What forum would you recommend?  It would be of interest to both Nihonto and Military groups.

[Bruno]

[Bugyotsuji]

NTHK, signed and sealed by Mr Miyano and his board members.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Giving Showato blades the same rank of paper as legitimate Gendaito and Nihonto devalues the papers tremendously. 

[Bugyotsuji]

53 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Giving Showato blades the same rank of paper as legitimate Gendaito and Nihonto devalues the papers tremendously. 

The paperwork simply attests 正真, = sure thing, (what it says on the lid/label, is what it says it is), i.e. not a fake.

[Toryu2020]

All due respect to Mr Bowen this is an NPO paper as suspected, the one true and original NTHK does not paper showa-to...

 

-t

[Bruno]

4 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

All due respect to Mr Bowen this is an NPO paper as suspected, the one true and original NTHK does not paper showa-to...

 

-t

This was done before they instituted their no showa-to policy.

[Bruno]

17 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

What forum would you recommend?  It would be of interest to both Nihonto and Military groups.

Good question!  I guess Military groups?

[Toryu2020]

47 minutes ago, Bruno said:

This was done before they instituted their no showa-to policy.

Ah well, that makes it OK...

[Baba Yaga]

Collectors seem surprised, are you really surprised? I for one am not, more to come.

 

I want to know WHY my higher end "Art Swords" collected decades ago is still worth what I paid?  Yes, I can move them fast because of status, but appreciation stinks,   

[NewB]

After today's shinsa I am totally wondering

 

What on Earth is going on with shinsa 🤣

 

What a disappointment 😞 ..

 

 

J.

 

 

[Mark S.]

13 hours ago, NewB said:

 

What a disappointment 😞 ..

 

Results not what you hoped I take it? 

[NewB]

4 hours ago, Mark S. said:

Results not what you hoped I take it? 

 

Well, how could we agree that the blades Do show the qualities and proprietary elements of the smiths that signed BUT the signature is off. So someone was superb in not only faking the signature but was also a master of faking the craft?? Get the heck outta here right lol

 

J

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, NewB said:

 

Well, how could we agree that the blades Do show the qualities and proprietary elements of the smiths that signed BUT the signature is off. So someone was superb in not only faking the signature but was also a master of faking the craft?? Get the heck outta here right lol

 

J

John / Yulian: in fact this did happen a lot in the past. Blades which were either mumei, or with deliberately removed signatures, but bearing stylistic similarities to certain smiths subsequently have had applied to them the signatures of these aforementioned smiths. That is the whole idea behind gimei: you do not chisel a gimei signature on a random blade but on one that is close enough to be perceived to be by the putative smith. 

It goes even beyond that. Sometimes the styles of both workmanship and mei are close enough and a blade could switch attribution. For instance, I have seen Masatsune blades which at one point were deemed Bitchu Ko-Aoe but have also had Ko-Bizen attributions (admittedly these two Bizen schools were close in workmanship and geographic proximity). Similarly, even within Bitchu, there is a Masatsune that at one point was deemed Ko-Aoe and at another Senoo. Now that is a bit too close as they are both branches of Bitchu (most people just tend to lump these into the Aoe bucket) but nevertheless, it is still illustrative. 
 

I have held a blade which at one point was deemed to be an Osafune Kagemitsu (at Juyo ) and at another, Osafune Kagemasa (at TokuJu). It just happened that it was strategically clipped after the “Kage” character, with the rest of the signature intact. Now, of course these were master and student respectively but clearly close enough. 
 

Sometimes the NBTHK would uphold a blade as made by a certain smith but would qualify the mei as “to mei ga aru”, which means that they acknowledge there is the mei of the given smith but they have some doubts, or the signature is a bit off, but needs further study. Sometimes the qualification disappears in the passage from Juyo to TokuJu and they reaffirm the signature. 

 

My examples above are not pertinent to the NTHK NPO, but demonstrate the subtleties involved and how many nuances there are that go through experts’ minds, while we / collectors like sliced and diced and readily regurgitated answers. 
 

 

[NewB]

3 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

John / Yulian: in fact this did happen a lot in the past. Blades which were either mumei, or with deliberately removed signatures, but bearing stylistic similarities to certain smiths subsequently have had applied to them the signatures of these aforementioned smiths. That is the whole idea behind gimei: you do not chisel a gimei signature on a random blade but on one that is close enough to be perceived to be by the putative smith. 

It goes even beyond that. Sometimes the styles of both workmanship and mei are close enough and a blade could switch attribution. For instance, I have seen Masatsune blades which at one point were deemed Bitchu Ko-Aoe but have also had Ko-Bizen attributions (admittedly these two Bizen schools were close in workmanship and geographic proximity). Similarly, even within Bitchu, there is a Masatsune that at one point was deemed Ko-Aoe and at another Senoo. Now that is a bit too close as they are both branches of Bitchu (most people just tend to lump these into the Aoe bucket) but nevertheless, it is still illustrative. 
 

I have held a blade which at one point was deemed to be an Osafune Kagemitsu (at ) and at another, Osafune Kagemasa (at TokuJu). It just happened that it was strategically clipped after the “Kage” character, with the rest of the signature intact. Now, of course these were master and student respectively but clearly close enough. 
 

Sometimes the NBTHK would uphold a blade as made by a certain smith but would qualify the mei as “to mei ga aru”, which means that they acknowledge there is the mei of the given smith but they have some doubts, or the signature is a bit off, but needs further study. Sometimes the qualification disappears in the passage from Juyo to TokuJu and they reaffirm the signature. 

 

My examples above are not pertinent to the NTHK NPO, but demonstrate the subtleties involved and how many nuances there are that go through experts’ minds, while we / collectors like sliced and diced and readily regurgitated answers. 
 

 

 

I appreciate what you've written and I agree

 

What

I am having hard time believing is that someone can be so skilled to make konuka hada in a such a perfect manner that only shodai Tadayoshi was able to make and then fake the signature (And the blade was advertised in the 70s reikishi magazine as guaranteed shodai tadayoshi kanteisho) ?? So that person knew the 'secrets' of making it so good that even faked the signature??

 

That just makes no logical sense.. 

 

That's why I said

 

To be safe, their stance is - let's deem it - 'needs further study'

 

I know it is 100% as my sensei got it as a wedding present when he married in the nabeshima clan family!

 

Hahaha

 

J.

[Guest Simon R]

21 minutes ago, NewB said:

I know it is 100% as my sensei got it as a wedding present when he married in the nabeshima clan family!

 

Hahaha

 

J.

So, you don't need a paper to prove that it is what you already know it to be. 
Just sit back and enjoy what sounds like a splendid blade.

[NewB]

6 minutes ago, SRDRowson said:

So, you don't need a paper to prove that it is what you already know it to be. 
Just sit back and enjoy what sounds like a splendid blade.

 

You are so right. Indeed. Thank you

 

I just wanted to be named on the paper lol

 

Kidding

 

J.

[Tom Darling]

Let me get this straight, when submitting WWII military swords that are not hand made, seki stamped or not, are they rejected at the Chicago show?  Do they charge a fee to tell you it's .........?  or so.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Tom Darling
added a word or two

[Tom Darling]

Does this cover oil tempered,  it doesn't make sense, except for making money.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Oil tempered blade with "papers" to Tsuda Sukehiro.

 

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/k1090792081?conversionType=service_page_search