What on earth is going on with shinsa?

[Guest Simon R]

Another oil tempered Showato with Hozon.

This time they didn't even bother to remove the SEKI stamp.

 

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana_A090320.html

 

The origami isn't shown but to quote the seller's description: "Token hozon-kai paper "刀剣保存会鑑定書" ( issued on 17th June Heisei 24(2012))"

 

So the NBTHK started letting these pass over ten years ago and they seem to be popping out of the woodwork now. 

[Nobody]

The seller says that the paper was issued by 日本刀剣保存会 - Nihon Token Hozonkai (NTHK). That is not NBTHK.

 

[Guest Simon R]

4 hours ago, Nobody said:

The seller says that the paper was issued by 日本刀剣保存会 - Nihon Token Hozonkai (NTHK). That is NOT NBTHK.

 

Sorry - my mistake. I do apologise 

 

So that means BOTH groups are now passing these blades - but I guess at least the NBTHK makes you file the stamp off first. HUZZAH!!!

 

🎶

In olden days, a big hagire

Was looked on as something shitty.

But now, God knows,

Anything goes.🎶

 

(With many apologies to Cole Porter)

[ROKUJURO]

Simon,

I am not so sure that this blade was oil quenched. There seems to be a narrow NIOI GUCHI, and in the paper, even NIE is mentioned being present on the blade. This would not occur on an oil-quenched blade.

I like Cole Porter a lot, but possibly it does not fit here. 

[Guest Simon R]

1 hour ago, ROKUJURO said:

Simon,

I am not so sure that this blade was oil quenched. There seems to be a narrow NIOI GUCHI, and in the paper, even NIE is mentioned being present on the blade. This would not occur on an oil-quenched blade.

I like Cole Porter a lot, but possibly it does not fit here. 

Jean,

The hamon has the tell-tale dark areas in its peaks and it has a SEKI stamp for crying out loud.

As for nie, it is only mentioned by the seller - who, of course, has nothing to gain by embellishment.

Frankly, I can't see it - can you?

 

As for dear old Cole Porter,  I think he would applaud the absurdity which I'm trying to highlight. I know that the dealers and sword organisations have a symbiotic relationship - after all, you can't charge Juyo prices without a Juyo origami. Therefore, perhaps the dealers had better start getting worried because, if the NBTHK and NTHK keep making bad calls like this, then their evaluations (at least at Hozon and Tokuho levels) will eventually be about as credible as an election in Russia or Belarus.

[Brian]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a Showato. Have seen multiple Japanese dealers talk about fine hada on a muji blade.
It's a fact, they will paper them when they can. Something we have to get used to. Maybe there is less regard for these as weapons, and more respect for them as a part of history..who knows?

[ChrisW]

Honestly, its an eventuality that they'll start papering more and more showato I think. Partly because its still a continuance of the history of nihonto and still uses many of the same techniques. Showato can display some of the finer traits of nihonto as well too.

Could also be a money thing too. There's a lot of showato out there. Many of them were made with care and diligence, so they could be regarded as art within their own right. And with a ready supply of showato, it would be a no brainer to increase their value by recognizing them as legitimate. It is definitely a grey area, much like how traditionally made blades that aren't made with tamahagane are still recognized as art blades in a lot of cases.
 

[Bruce Pennington]

Sorry for the off-topic question, but could someone tell me what this is in the date:

[Brian]

Could just be that the people who experienced the war and remember the horrors of these have become fewer and fewer and the next generation doesn't see them the same way and they don't evoke the same memories?

[Jussi Ekholm]

Bruce I would believe it is 正. The WWII mei are often bit hard to read

[Toryu2020]

I'd be curious to see the papers but they don't pop up with the link?

 

-t

[Ray Singer]

As Jussi indicated, appears to be shogatsu (first month). 

[Bruno]

13 hours ago, Nobody said:

日本刀剣保存会 - Nihon Token Hozonkai (NTHK)

NTHK and NTHK NPO is the same or a different organization?

 

Do they issue the same certificates? I am not sure to understand the difference between both.

[mecox]

Bruce,  date kanji as noted by Jussi and Ray is sho gatsu (first month).

Below text from a useful notebook (written by wife and self "Hizuke no Hon"  Book of Dates....)

 

[Mark S.]

3 hours ago, Bruno said:

NTHK and NTHK NPO is the same or a different organization?

Two separate organizations and two different certificates although they are similar in layout,  appearance, and information presented.  

[Guest Simon R]

I agree with both Brian and Chris on this subject.

If the NBTHK and NTHK are both reevaluating the value of Showa era swords - oil tempered or otherwise - then I have no disagreement with that in principle, especially as I do believe that these swords have an intrinsic, historical value (which has previously been ignored for mainly political reasons).

 

However, if these two, respected organisations are indeed changing their goalposts, then they should announce this publicly so that all the proud owners of Showato can put their swords forward for papers, should they so wish.

It's only fair to know where you stand - and it is the current ambiguity which is damaging to the image of the organisations.

 

Simon

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm... Simon, that last statement got my cogs whirling.  I can imagine that such ambiguity is fine for them until they are abolutely forced to draw another line in the sand.

 

They can probably deal with the occasional Showa-to, each being 'an exception', but the NBTHK for example already have around 6,000 blades a year to work through, so they probably do not (yet) want to advertise or even have the staff for a new bracket of workmanship. From Showa onwards, of course, waiting in the wings, are those post-WW2 blades made by elderly smiths reviving the old tradition.

 

[Guest Simon R]

12 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Hmmm... Simon, that last statement got my cogs whirling.  I can imagine that such ambiguity is fine for them until they are abolutely forced to draw another line in the sand.

 

They can probably deal with the occasional Showa-to, each being 'an exception', but the NBTHK for example already have around 6,000 blades a year to work through, so they probably do not (yet) want to advertise or even have the staff for a new bracket of workmanship. From Showa onwards, of course, are those post-WW2 blades made by elderly smiths reviving the old tradition.

 

That makes perfect sense Piers but it's still leaves us in a state of quasi-limbo at present. 

And if, as Brian has suggested in the past, the occasional Showato passing shinsa are probably due to someone 'calling in a favour', then this smacks of the Yakuza's undue influence on judges back in the 70s - a scenario which inevitably leaves a somewhat unpleasant taste in the mouth.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Jussi, Ray, and Mal!

 

Now back to your regular programming!

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

are they considering Showa blades as a means to make more money or as a means to preserve these pieces?  they arent even antique yet.  I feel as though papering showa blades is a cash grab if the items arent even considered antique yet.  Whats next?  Mr Nagoyas Tsuba?

[Matsunoki]

Interesting debate. I’m sure many of us own Showa period swords that we would consider deserving of papers (if papers are “your thing”). 
This topic was well kicked around in the following link that related to a 1937 dated Tanto (now in my custody) by Horii Toshihide that was awarded Yushu papers by the NTHK NPO ….arguably equivalent to NBTHK Juyo!?

All very confusing 

 

[Toryu2020]

Keep in mind that a sword cannot be registered in Japan if it does not have NIE - this would pre-clude most hantan Showa-to. Someone very familiar with this smith decided that it was traditionally made even with the stamp - if the artist is dead that may also be one big factor...

 

-t

[Gakusee]

Is it worthwhile discussing / debating by whom and where the particular NTHK papers were awarded (domestically or in the US)? That might have some bearing on the fact that papers have been issued…

[Matsunoki]

3 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

s it worthwhile discussing / debating by whom and where the particular NTHK papers were awarded (domestically or in the US)? That might have some bearing on the fact that papers have been issued

Michael, in the case of the Tanto in  the link I posted, the Yushu paper was issued in Japan by NTHK NPO.

However I guess your question relates to the Showato in the orig post?

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Michael, in the case of the Tanto in  the link I posted, the Yushu paper was issued in Japan by NTHK NPO.

However I guess your question relates to the Showato in the orig post?

Yes, Colin, thanks. I was being unclear.Was wondering if we had images or seen the paper on the above blade which seems non-traditional to me too. 
 

The tanto you posted is a different kettle of fish - hand/traditionally made. 

[Bruno]

20 hours ago, Mark S. said:

Two separate organizations and two different certificates although they are similar in layout,  appearance, and information presented.  

Thanks Mark.

 

I have been told a bit more informations recently by Chris B.

 

"The NTHK split into 2 groups after the death of the head of the group. One faction continued under the family and adopted son of the former head, the other faction incorporated as a non-profit group recognized by the Japanese government and continues as the NTHK-NPO. This split occurred more than 20 years ago. The papers being discussed are by the Yoshikawa NTHK group, not the NPO. The NPO publishes a statement in every issue of their journal that states clearly that they will not paper mass produced, arsenal made, showa-to."

[Toryu2020]

We need to see this paper...

[Bruno]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:36 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Sorry for the off-topic question, but could someone tell me what this is in the date:

Hi Bruce,

 

It would be of interest to open a new special topic taking a census of all showa-to papered by NBTHK or NTHK, wouldn't be?

[Bruno]

11 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

We need to see this paper.

I just asked the seller. Wait and see...

[Toryu2020]

It says "Token Hozon-Kai Kantei-sho" not Nihon To-ken Hozon-Kai I highly doubt this is a true and original NTHK issued paper...

 

-t