The Edo Chop Shop: Documenting Fakes Produced in Europe

[Tengu1957]

Just to clarify I purchased this armor. I knew what I was buying and I bought it because I liked it. It was a reasonable price and I would buy it again. I don't know who changed what but like all descriptions on antique things buy what you see not what it is described. What I did get was what was pictured with excellent packing and communication. If any of you have an issue with the seller then take it up with him. I posted this a short while ago so I am assuming since you have seem to have been tracking it you are aware of who bought it. I really get tired of hearing people snipe at each other on this forum. The Japanese swop parts on armor , break up sets and all manner of other things to make more money. Is anyone surprised that this happens all over. I can't think of a more scary way to make a living than dealing in and or restoring antiques. Sometimes you buy things because you like them. Don't turn everything into a Monkey poop fight because there are no winners in the end. 

[Miura]

19 hours ago, GN174 said:

how do you know the first seller hadn't already swapped out the sangu - I don't know how you would know, please share this knowledge, 

 

Did the other seller sell it with the maedate in your first picture?, dealers in Japan do swap parts around and break up sets for profit, while I don't like to see that it does happen, The hair looks like it is pushed into the tehen (removable plume) in my opinion. 

 

Sangu set is matching, gusoku I understand means matched rather than made to match as you have stated, 

 

The kabuto, mempo, sode and dou are all matched, as are the kote, hiadate and suneate - which is a matched armour 

I saw this armor when it was still in Japan right before it was sold. Still had the proper sangu and the maedate that were in the photos.   I dont understand why anybody would break up that matching set.   Its just really weird that somebody would do that because it devalues the set as the kiko on the watagami matched the tsuneate.  Now its a composite.  Weird. 

[Miura]

Im not trying to beat a dead horse, but from experience, I can say that, yes, I have seen armors get broken apart and sold separately for more money in Japan and ALSO because not one dealer can afford the full price of an armor.... so they break it up and each dealer gets a part.  But it is usually at auctions and it is done mainly for the dealers to sell to foreigners.  What is trying to be done here is to educate people  (you foreigners)  as to why it is important to keep things togehter.  There was one armor that I saw broken up and it took me years to track down the pieces and put back together.   I also once found the missing mempo from an armor owned by Date Masamune misplaced that was put in the wrong box a couple hundred years ago (maybe the kids were playing with it) and ended up in Date Yoshikuni's armor's box which was sold off  years ago by the family.  It took me 25 years, but the armor was finally put back together, and it was only by chance. I made a mistake which brought me into the place that had the armor (and mempo) if I hadnt gone in there at that time, for some weird reason, it would have never gotten back together.    I see people on here all day long talking about how its their responsibility to take care of this stuff... and they are only the temporary owners etc.  Then take care of it!  If you cant afford to by the whole armor, then don't.  I would say the same thing for a sword with its original koshiare.   There is much more to learn about the history of an artifact with a fuller context of the item.  The more you take it apart and re-do it to your preferences, the more you ruin the context. There is plenty of stuff out there. Just find something that you like before buying something only to rip it apart and re-make it or only buy part of it because you dont have room in your house for full armors. Too many headless armors out there.  Just my thoughts.

[Luc T]

I try to understand the clan and school features of armors since decades.   It truly is a fascinating world.

It is important to understand that switching parts is much more harmful than one can expect at first glance.

We are discussing such a series of armors for the moment on our Japanese Armor Society forum.  I think our members understand the importance of a complete genuine set.   Genuine matching sets become rare and expensive. 
You may own an armor and do with it whatever you want, you have not broken any law if you put it on fire, repaint it, whatever.   But it is stupid and it stays vandalism. 

[Bontenmaru]

For real vandalism check this out. Like Chris’s example from the same self proclaimed U.K. expert but much worse.

 

Sweet tidy white laced armor in Japan…

 

Buy it, ship it to the U.K.

Swap out the sangu then out with a pot of red paint…yep red paint, probably not even urushi. And look…..

 

The reason to do this? Kerching! 

All about the money. 

More bling = more bucks!

Cultural vandalism. Period.

 

 

[Samurai Art]

Dear Mr Chris Covington and Arthur Gotez aka (Eric) Bontenmaru, Fake Account (posts = 1)

The armour you have posted did indeed sell for a considerable amount of money. The client is extremely happy with the purchase and is a member of NMB.
No doubt your use of a fake account will remove any further embarrassment of your trolling by fooling everyone into believing you are a third person.

The armour was purchased from Mr Fairey of KOA Antiques, a UK-based dealer, not Japanese. Mr Fairey confirmed that it was a composite needing restoration. It was therefore restored to the client's instruction where more suitable and tasteful components were sourced. The entire process was openly documented on Facebook and supported by my restoration website (as you well know).

The completed armour was then submitted for Shinsa in Japan via my company, The Kokusai Nihon Kachu Bugu Shinko Kyokai (国際日本甲冑武具振興協) where it received the grade of Tokubetsu Hozon which was awarded by the shinsa team managed at the time by Mr Andrew Mancabelli. The armour is 100% real, and should you wish to fund a C-14 test, this can be arranged.  

 

[Arthur G]

Bontenmaru is Date Masamune's childhood name, right?

I messaged that account earlier at 1:50AM UK time just to make sure it was you, and it didn't get a response, whereas it was height of internet activity stateside. Did you download a free vpn?

So, tell me, what's special about this photo Dave? Come on, let's see if you spot it.


 

[Samurai Art]

Arthur, most people know you used the fake account Date Masamune on Facebook to troll me. You are a troll. Your troll groups were closed down, and you have been banned from many SM platforms. The fact that you have to bring your trash to NMB is pitiful.

Like all trolls, you fabricate information; you alter images on Photoshop and post hate and lies. Nothing good comes of this. You are toxic.

I'm very busy running a successful business for extremely happy clients, I don't have the time to validate your existence. You don't mean anything to me.

[Brian]

I don't get paid to sit all day and work out who is who and what group has a vendetta against whom.
I find this whole feud between groups in the armor world to be very disturbing and childish. But if you guys think I have hours every day to make wall charts and bar graphs and work out who is on which team, who is making allegations against whom, and sit and try to weed out posts that need to be moderated and what to leave....then you need to start paying me for my time. My job is to scan all posts every day, make sure everything is up and running and there is nothing of major importance that needs addressing. That does not include squabbles and personal vendettas.
I am not going to start censoring every post here, or take a side and start deleting everything from the opposing side. And I am NOT going to protect anyone or ban the entire subject from the community at large.
Sort yourselves out! Otherwise I'll make the Katchu section private by membership only, and charge for access.
I won't tolerate fake accounts or VPN's or threats against me...all things I have had before and continue to have. This is directed at both sides. (If there aren't even more than 2 sides?)
I'll be running some scripts to see what IP's are VPN's, what accounts are registered more than once etc, and I'll delete any that contravene these rules without warning.
All of you, you're on thin ice.
 

[YOJIMBO]

6 minutes ago, Brian said:

I don't get paid to sit all day and work out who is who and what group has a vendetta against whom.

 

So leave it as it is. No one is asking for your intervention.

[Brian]

12 minutes ago, YOJIMBO said:

So leave it as it is. No one is asking for your intervention.

Who do you think you are talking to?
Do you have ANY idea the number of private messages I am dealing with about this situation on a daily basis?
What you see here is a FRACTION of what I have to deal with. You don't see MOST of what happens when running a forum like this.

[GN174]

Its your forum Brian so you don't have to stick to free speak principles. It just seems to be a trolling thread with little value, as same agenda's are being pushed again and again in this and new threads of a similar vein, and Brian I am sorry for your stress as your forum is a great resource but unfortunately as you correctly in saying people are clearly running person vendetta's in public via these threads. Maybe some growing up in in order for some people posting, as I think the katchu thread undermines the value of your whole forum, which is a great shame. 

 

The internet is a wonderful thing where people seem to think that normal human etiquette and behaviour does not apply and seems to bring out the very worse in some people. I am going to stick to reading the sword threads and avoid the armour threads which given the current trend are seriously lacking a level of maturity. I like to see people having positive discussions about armour and swords, as it is a hobby for 99% of the people, and I love shared knowledge and centres for pooled knowledge. However, you dress it up this is not positive sharing of knowledge, its teenage trolling.  I am fortunately enough to be able to connect to real people in the real world with great knowledge on swords and armour and who are happy to share their knowledge in a mature and constructive way, and to those people I am deeply greatly. So will stick to that as that is time well spent. 

[chris covington]

Mr. Thatcher,

 

Welcome.

 

First off, EVERYONE in the community knows who Date Masamune is at this point. So, you can please drop the charade. It’s like watching Ed Norton in his boss’ office in Fight Club. This is the ultimate in strawmen. The critique of the work, thus far, has been from transparent accounts. Why on earth would one of us use a fake account to make a new critique, on an armor not worth mentioning in this thread? It is an attempt to deflect the attention off of the topic, cry foul, and try to get the ref to throw a yellow card. I’m not interested in circular conversation over this like I’ve had with Mr. Noble, “Nuh uh, prove it.” Let's not insult each other's intelligence.  

 

If you’d like to refute any of the points I’ve brought up, please feel free to do so. 

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Alex A]

Shame, the last armour thread was great (for a non-armour dude)

 

Now im sat here thinking armour is ten times the minefield that swords are and looks a real headache in more ways than one.

 

Also, about swords. No real way to know if a koshirae is all out original to a blade. Usually dealers that use that statement.

 

[Miura]

On 5/5/2023 at 6:40 AM, Bontenmaru said:

For real vandalism check this out. Like Chris’s example from the same self proclaimed U.K. expert but much worse.

 

Sweet tidy white laced armor in Japan…

 

Buy it, ship it to the U.K.

Swap out the sangu then out with a pot of red paint…yep red paint, probably not even urushi. And look…..

 

The reason to do this? Kerching! 

All about the money. 

More bling = more bucks!

Cultural vandalism. Period.

 

 

Identify yourself. You seem to have posted photos under yoru Date Masamune account a long time ago that only Dave Thathcer and Myself had access to at the time of posting. What is your relationship to Mr. Thatcher?

[Miura]

22 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

Dear Mr Chris Covington and Arthur Gotez aka (Eric) Bontenmaru, Fake Account (posts = 1)

The armour you have posted did indeed sell for a considerable amount of money. The client is extremely happy with the purchase and is a member of NMB.
No doubt your use of a fake account will remove any further embarrassment of your trolling by fooling everyone into believing you are a third person.

The armour was purchased from Mr Fairey of KOA Antiques, a UK-based dealer, not Japanese. Mr Fairey confirmed that it was a composite needing restoration. It was therefore restored to the client's instruction where more suitable and tasteful components were sourced. The entire process was openly documented on Facebook and supported by my restoration website (as you well know).

The completed armour was then submitted for Shinsa in Japan via my company, The Kokusai Nihon Kachu Bugu Shinko Kyokai (国際日本甲冑武具振興協) where it received the grade of Tokubetsu Hozon which was awarded by the shinsa team managed at the time by Mr Andrew Mancabelli. The armour is 100% real, and should you wish to fund a C-14 test, this can be arranged.  

 

Dave Thatcher wrote:  The completed armour was then submitted for Shinsa in Japan via my company,The Kokusai Nihon Kachu Bugu Shinko Kyokai (国際日本甲冑武具振興協) where it received the grade of Tokubetsu Hozon which was awarded by the shinsa team managed at the time by Mr Andrew Mancabelli. The armour is 100% real, and should you wish to fund a C-14 test, this can be arranged.  
 

 1. No. It was submitted by Dave Thatcher. Not Raimu or any other company.

2. The kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai is not and was NEVER your company.

3. I did manage the shinsa team. (an actual shinsa team.... not the fake "one" in England)  And it was not an easy job. 

4. The armor is antique, and restored. The level of papers is appropriate for an authentic armor, even a composite, in this condition.

[Miura]

21 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

Arthur, most people know you used the fake account Date Masamune on Facebook to troll me. You are a troll. Your troll groups were closed down, and you have been banned from many SM platforms. The fact that you have to bring your trash to NMB is pitiful.

Like all trolls, you fabricate information; you alter images on Photoshop and post hate and lies. Nothing good comes of this. You are toxic.

I'm very busy running a successful business for extremely happy clients, I don't have the time to validate your existence. You don't mean anything to me.

Dave Thatcher wrote:  Arthur, most people know you used the fake account Date Masamune on Facebook to troll me.

1. The Date Masamune account is NOT Arthur.  Before I knew what was going on as I was not on social media at that time, I remember you speaking of a fake account you created, and I recall the name to get back at somebody for something I assume this Date Masamune was it.  

Dave Thatcher worte:  You have been banned from many SM platforms.

2. So have you. And I assume many people have. But you always re-emerge with a  new account for some reason.  

Dave Thatcher wrote: The fact that you have to bring your trash to NMB is pitiful.

3. What trash?  Please be specific.

Dave Thatcher Wrote:you fabricate information; you alter images on Photoshop and post hate and lies. Nothing good comes of this. You are toxic.

4. What images were altered? What lies? Im interested. 

 

 

 

[uwe]

18 hours ago, Alex A said:

Shame, the last armour thread was great (for a non-armour dude)

 

Now im sat here thinking armour is ten times the minefield that swords are and looks a real headache in more ways than one.

 

Also, about swords. No real way to know if a koshirae is all out original to a blade. Usually dealers that use that statement.

 

You are right Alex!

A good write up by Arthur, although I can’t thoroughly agree for the time being. Anyway, it left some food for thoughts….

 

Thanks Arthur for sharing your ideas here!
(That also applies for the okegawa-thread ‼️)

 

A minefield? Yes of course, but worth dealing with 😉

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by uwe

[Alex A]

Better getting new folk into an hobby then putting them off, for obvious reasons.

 

Great to learn about new stuff but no one wants to see folk sorting out their disputes in what should have been educational.

 

Saying that though, as you mention, some good info.