The Edo Chop Shop: Documenting Fakes Produced in Europe

[Arthur G]

This will be a general thread for posting known and suspected fakes produced currently in Europe. A surprising number have appeared in the market over the years, which all seem to be coming from one source. There are certain identifiers that become glaringly obvious once you've seen enough of them.

Now that this forum has access to two actual armorers, the members here will have access to unbiased technical knowledge and analysis of these, making it easier to spot and purge them from the marketplace.

I have some info and examples I've gathered over the years that I'm very much looking forward to sharing with the community. However, I'd like to see everyone here sharing some they've encountered themselves rather than have me direct the narrative; afterall, there is a long, long list of people that have been affected in some way or another. Please don't be shy! And if there are any that you are unsure of and would like a second pair of eyes on, we would be happy to help. 

The focus of this faker is on kawari kabuto in particular, needless to say, but he/she does have quite a range of things they like to trash. Over the years I have gathered a shocking number of sources on their practices, all of which having told consistent yet separate stories. I must say, the portfolio is quite extensive at this point! Funnily enough, I had no interest in this person until they decided to make it my problem a few years ago. All I wanted to do was make my armor and matchlocks, as I always had from the beginning.

But they just couldn't leave well enough alone could they?

Just so involved parties know that I mean business, here is a sampler.

 

[Arthur G]

[Miura]

Looks Like a sogo nari to me.  Is that a restoration or a complete redo?  My own personal opinion is that I keep my work between myself and my client, so whatever they ask for its either new, restored old, or unrestored old.  Doesnt mean that the client wont sell it as original, or maybe it makes it to an auction and the dealers dont know the difference.  Last few auctions I have been to had some very very well done Akoda Nari Kabuto, and they sold for authentic prices. Problem is that the person who made it was the dealer at the auction... but auctions are buyer beware so its hard to point fingers.  The guy who made this sogonari, did he sell it as real? 

[Miura]

On the other hand my organization did have a submission from one of the members that was a composite armor re-lacquered, and im almost 100 percent posative the hachi of the kabuto was modern.  But he swore up and down that it was real. That was the one paper that I always regretted passing.  Glad he quit.  We do give papers to restored composite armors if they are properly restored with urushi and silk lacing and done tastefully.  The level of paper would depend on how true the restoration is. And only artisans with a lot of training or other historians etc. with a lot of experience are qualified to judge such things at that level in my opinion.

[Arthur G]

Ohhhh it's a complete redo!

Gotta tease everyone just a little bit more, so here's another snippet.




But let's build up a nice little base of examples first before I serve up the entree.

[Miura]

Oh god. Im not even going to ask.

[Miura]

So are these old items being re-made, or original items being sold as old or?

[Arthur G]

Well, he/she/they have no ability to make a helmet from scratch, which I have confirmed from numerous internal sources now.

So he/she/they relies on either replicas or in most cases damaged originals as a base for... should we say "creative expression"? 

Hence the "it's not faking as such"... but just an advanced restoration 

 

 

[Luc T]

A lot of fakes are made nowadays, other armors or pieces are pimped to impress or sell for more.    Sogonari is an easy target, all you need is a zunari and boarfurr.  

Another trick is red lacquer,   red sells good.  Or to add kirigane… 

when money is involved, anything is possible.

[chris covington]

Mr. Mancabelli,

 

Since you are a classically trained katchushi and the owner of a shinsa organization I’ll address this to you, but anyone is free to jump in, I’d like to see different opinions. Where is the line in the sand for these practices? When does it go from restoration to outright fraud?

 

I do think it is important to preform regular maintenance work and restoration work on antique armor. Everyone has seen old kabuto that have chipped off urushi and rust forming, and if we want these items of historical value to last for more generations, we certainly should restore them. At the same time, we are not owners of these items, we are care takers with the responsibility to pass these on to the next generation. It isn’t appropriate, in my view, to simply do what one wants with them.

 

Above, Arthur mentions using antiques as a base to make fanciful creations. Maybe I’m in the minority but I feel like buying an old black zunari and painting it red (because red ones sell for more as Mr. Taelman mentioned) or creating full on kawari kabuto out of it isn’t at all appropriate, even if the owner wants that. The old black zunari should be restored to the original configuration, or as close as possible. Maybe as fanciful as you should get is changing the odoshi color. Anything else muddies the water and builds mistrust with all but the most apathetic buyers.

 

Now, maybe someone does want their kabuto to look like a famous one, and the artisan or craftsman repairing decides to do a one off, if that is clearly stated in the work. Maybe that becomes a grey area. But what of the owner? He goes and sells it as an original "fancy" helmet, when really it was a generic old black zunari? Is the craftsman okay with that? What if the craftsman makes that a business model? You buy cheap old helmets (we know many exist in Japan and you can hire business associates in Japan to pick them up for you and ship them out from yahoo auctions and antique markets) and they start making kawari kabuto and selling a $500 helmet for $10,000, as an authentic period helmet at auctions. That, to me, moves from grey to an obvious ethical dilemma. Once a craftsman develops a portfolio of suspect work, that calls into question everything else they do. When someone has described their business model of making these extreme restorations saying “It’s not faking as such,” calling the process an “Edo Chop Shop,” and flipping helmets for $8,500-$12,000 a pop, it calls into question not just their portfolio, but the entire armor market. Does the market accept this? If so, we can all have daimyo quality armors in our homes made out of low-end pieces.

 

This example vexes me (see photos). For some reason eyebrows were added to this, otherwise perfectly fine helmet, with putty (kokuso I assume?). Some people like eyebrows on their helmets and we know that they sell for more. So, this was a deliberate modification to make an already acceptable helmet more sellable. I can’t think of any other reason to add them on, in putty no less. Then when we compare the before and after photos, we can see how thick that urushi is on there (the mabizashi is always a dead give-away for these types of restorations). They had to build up a very thick layer to carve the brow furrows. The thickness of the urushi is very unattractive to my eye.  With the russet lacquered finish added, it is hard to tell that those eyebrows are fake unless you have a keen eye for things like urushi quality. It feels like going to the club and seeing a pretty girl in the dim light. Once you get out of the club you find out her eyebrows are painted on. Weird. There is even a chip left in the mabizashi! This further indicates it was meant to deceive and wasn't just a client who wanted a little extra, because why do a full restoration, but leave fake chips to indicate originality? 

 

 

 

Mr. Mancabelli, how does the shinsa organization handle this? Because there are process photos, we know how this was made. Is there a way for the shinsa team to detect deliberate modifications like this? Would something that is modified like this get papered, if the modification is detected? Like I asked in the beginning, where is the line in the sand?  

 

Thanks for entertaining my questions and thoughts,

Chris

[Miura]

Wow, a bunch of very good questions Chris. In my opinion, as far as work orders go, Ill do whatever the client wishes me to do, but I will advise them on what the best options are.  There are varying degrees of “conservative” restoration, where we try to address the troubled areas, stop deterioration, and keep original lacquer etc. for ambiance.  In these cases sometimes we will try to add patina if desired to the restored areas to make it look unmolested and perfect. This is actually part of the Traditional Japanese restoration techniques. And it has been done for hundreds of years. When I do full restorations, I say I have done a traditional, professional restoration.  Unfortunately, and I say this without hesitation, there are certain people who have really hurt restorers because of how they badmouth items and created an air of untouchability for “restored” items so as to down-value or degrade items that are restored.  For example, they might say, it doesn’t have the original lacing so its no good, or the urushi is not original, or the shikoro is changed etc.  The problem here is that just about every armor that has real age has had some sort of re-working and restoration done to it. Most lacing outside of blue variants degrade rather quickly and have to be replaced over 100-200 years or so.  Indigo lasts longer for several reasons such as being resistant to UV, and being bug/microbe repellant.   In any event because of the attitude taken toward full restorations, many people will try to hide their restorations by distressing their work. 

 

A good restorer has a huge base of knowledge and experience to draw off of so as to restore properly.  By properly, I mean not only be able to do work that will last a long time, but to be able to do something that is proper and within the taste and style of the period and place of original manufacture.

 

When does it become fraud?  I don’t say it is fraud in general when a restoration is performed on a piece. I would say it becomes fraud when something is made to look like or become something that it is not, and then promoted as being what it is not. That would be fakery.

 

I restored a helmet a few years ago just to show my skills. I did a Red kawari, with a verigated green shikoro. Thehelmet was momoyama period, but I wanted it done in a style that nobody had ever done before. When I finished it, it was on a couple different TV shows and a famous singer/model in Japan even wore it.   I sold it years ago at Bonhams for exactly what it was. A momoyama period kawari with a modern restoration. It did fine.  Miura sensei sold an old helmet he restored as well for a very good price. I find nothing wrong with saying its restored, as long as it is restored in the way that you say it has been restored. The problem is that when you restore it with epoxy and body filler, and say its done properly…. That I would call fraud.  

 

Last year at the Christies auction there was a kawari kabuto that was modern made. Nishioka Studios I believe, and it was papered by the katchu kai. If you look at the papers it says “Kawari Kabuto Zunari Base Edo Jidai” in big letters. Then in very small letters it says “harikake gendai” meaning that everything that makes it a kawari kabuto is modern.  The writing was so small that at first glance the Japanese Christies staff didn’t notice it until I called them up and warned them. On the other hands I sold a kawari through bonhams a while back for a friend. It was same place of manufacture. But it had papers to the Edo period. When we put it in Bonhams I insisted that we say it was modern.  Its all liability.  Anyway it sold. Somebody just wanted an art object and I was happy that there were people out there to buy the art for what it is.

 

I wouln’t take any zunari and do it red, unless it was of the type that would have been red in the first place. Doing that to me would stick out like a sore thumb and its one way in which fakes can set off alarm bells to the well trained eye.  Red should also be done with the proper pigment for the style of helmet.  Different periods, different mines for mercuric sulfide, ocher etc.  produce different local colors for the local armor. Improper color for certain types of armor sets off alarm bells as well. And is an eye sore.

 

Odoshi is the same deal. You gotta know what goes right with which armor. Improper weave (such as that done by shoelace maker machines) or mimi – ito (boarder lacing) done with improper color combination or material sets off alarm bells. Every time I restore and use mimi – ito, I ask the weaver to do it exactly like the original, but in the original unfaded/unpatinated color. I have quite the collection at this point. But the style gets preserved at least.

 

I know That restored pieces can scare the living hell out of people who don’t know what they are doing, and it has been a moving force in some of the community to speak poorly of restorers (its out of fear) however secretly they ask us to do work just for them… just not ourselves because that would be bad. Hypocrites in my opinion but I digress.  

 

 

What you mentioned about buying old zunari and re-doing them on mass scale to be what they aren’t and presenting them as “old”… now that is on a fraudulent level, and is a severe ethical dilemma. 

 

 

One serious problem with the photos you posted the restoration process.  What was done to “seal”  the flaking urushi on the mabizashi is pretty bad. That is a typical quick fix that may last long enough for the item to sell, but will eventually fail, and leave the buyer very unhappy. Its like painting over a rust bubble. At that point the urushi is so compromised that its best just to excavate it, remove any rust and build it back up.  That’s my biggest problem. If you are going to restore it that way, don’t bother, but it is hard to tell what is underneath layers of urushi.  The eyebrows:  I generally would not do that kind of a restoration myself.  If it was done intentionally to fool somebody its not good.  If the chip was left there to make it original, its pretty devious. 

 

My organization, will not issue high level papers for these sorts of restorations, however if the restoration is well done and we can confirm that it is well done, we might give our second levelwhich is tokubetsu hozon.  We give tokubetsu hozon to items that have properly and well restored.  Generally, it is best to have eyes and ears on pieces directly to make sure as to the quality of the restoration and how it is restored. Our organization will do remote shinsa if we can confirm the item (having seen it first hand previously) or having an associate that we trust handle the item and send photos, and/or do a video chat and place the camera in specific places so we can confirm what it is. 

 

In the past we had an associate in England who was supposed to be doing this for us. Unfortunately, when it came to his own items he misrepresented some of them to us, and in some cases doctored the photos or told us that the item was old (and restored) when it had a modern helmet with an edo period Dou.  In the beginning we trusted him, but we started to realize that improper materials and methods such as epoxies and improper hardeners were being used as well as the mixed in modern parts.   To our credit we never issued anything above the Tokubestu hozon level even when the items were antique.  We really strive to support proper artisans and their techniques along with proper restoration methods so in general we support the methods outlined in the beginning of my text. At this time we still do offer remote shinsa, but In some instances where its difficult to confirm from photos or video we will issue the most basic papers.  Yes, if we have processual photos of how something was restored it would really help us to make a judgment call on what level we give it, but in general, we can get a pretty good idea seeing the finished product. Generally…. But it helps if you can trust the person who did it…

 

We also do issue “Gendai” (modern) papers for modern made items.  We do this because, again, we want to support proper artisanship. Therefore, the level that grades the modern made item would be issued by 1. How well it conforms to Japanese traditional design 2. Techniques. 3. Quality of the work.  4. Proper materials.     For example:  A marutake helmet:  1. Paint not urushi, 2. Press not hand 3. Iron alloy not iron 4. Soft metal alloy not gilt copper 5. Fittings pressed and cast not carved 6. Lacing not silk.  7. Machine formed not hammered.  At a distance, it looks like Japanese armor, but from an artisan’s perspective its not art, and from a katchu shi’s perspective, its not Japanese armor.  

 

I hope I have touched on all the points that were asked about..... If anything needs clarification please dont hesitate and ill do my best to explain.

[The Blacksmith]

  On 4/25/2023 at 12:41 PM, chris covington said:

At the same time, we are not owners of these items, we are care takers with the responsibility to pass these on to the next generation.

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I wish more collectors of antique weapons and armour, not just Japanese, thought like this!  I totally agree with you 100%, and have sadly argued this many times on different forums. Unfortunately, the 'I bought it and it's mine to do with as I like' philosophy, seems to be all too prevalent amongst some 'collectors'. Shouldn't really call them collectors, they are accumulators at best.

[Arthur G]

Now that the conversation is in full tilt, I think it's the right time for this.

I don't think there's really much I need to say. They say it all themselves quite succinctly:



There's another example that's circulated around in the community that I think will be much easier to assess now with this in mind.

[Miura]

Odd. It looks like more than one kind of kanamono holding on the shikoro.  Neither correct for the style of helmet.....

[Arthur G]

There's a very simple truth to be gleaned from this one.

The very fact there is almost nothing to say about is everything. When someone takes an original helmet to use as a base for a hobbyist level project like this, it ceases to be a kabuto.

There is nothing to remark upon because there's nothing of value left.

To put it quite simply, there is nothing being created; only destroyed. This is nothing but erasure of Japanese material culture.

[GN174]

The guy in Japan that produces the amazing fake JIngasa often seen in Juace he is so good I am afraid to buy any.  I don't think we should limit to Europe if we are on subject as I am sure there are plenty coming out of Japan and other parts of the world. 

[chris covington]

So, we’ve seen two helmets that are sketchy above. I’m sorry if the analogy of a seemingly pretty girl in the dance club offends anyone, but I feel like it makes my point well. The first helmet is like a girl in the dance club with no eyebrows, so she paints them on. It might work in dim light. The next helmet is that girl, but we find out she’s bald and has a wig. Continuing that theme is this helmet (posted elsewhere, but I think it is appropriate here). Makeup can be amazing if applied correctly, or it can look awful. This girl in the club has bad skin so she puts a LOT of foundation on. It is caked on. Maybe its ok in dim light, but outside it is harsh to look at.

 

For clarification this helmet is from a group of okashi-gusoku (armory-stored armors lent out to soldiers while on duty). From what I’ve gathered these were made for Kaga soldiers who were tasked with coastal defense around the mid-1850’s, after Perry showed up. Each one is numbered, likely for rack storage, 96 being the largest number I’m aware of (I’ve been able to document 16 different examples that vary in completeness). These aren’t high grade armors, but they are pretty unique (as a group I mean, obviously they are a set of many) and interesting.

 

 As seen from a few examples here the red color varies from an apple red to burgundy. This is an important point brought up by Mr. Mancabelli, understanding red armor. There is a great deal of variation based on regional differences. As he said, sources of the different ores used to make red will create different shades. As an observer, I find red to be one of the most difficult for people to match. Modern urushi uses modern chemical pigments, but old red pigments came from ore that contained mercury. Highly toxic and difficult to obtain. These older mercury-red colors create a much more nuanced color and it often refracts light in ways modern pigment can’t.

 

 

 

 

 

Now you’ll notice one mabizashi looks a lot different. The urushi is at least twice as thick. The stucco effect on it is much larger and coarser. Finally, the red urushi is more brown, I assume to try and match the original with modern pigment blends.

 

Just like “eyebrows” above, you can see how crude and thickly the urushi has been applied when you look at the mabizashi. The sabi technique approaches the original, but again it is large and coarse compared to the helmets that haven’t been “restored.” This helmet has urushi caked on like chocolate frosting. It is clumsy when compared to others of the same type. The new urushi was probably slathered overtop of the existing urushi. This is that girl in the club with so much foundation on, to fill in pock marks in her skin, you’d need a chisel to get it off of her.

 

This kabuto was an attempt to make it look original, but now we run into the stuff Mr. Mancabelli talks about here and in other posts about hobbyist and amateurs vs. classically trained katchushi. Unlike the other two helmets in the posts above that are made into something they aren’t, this is an earnest restoration attempt. But here’s where it goes sideways, the craftsman lacked the skill to do the work, but did it anyway. That caked on urushi has likely bonded with the original. You can’t separate the two. The original finish is gone.

 

Yes, in some cases the urushi is too far gone to save, that is true, but then you clean off all of the urushi and start with bare steel. Caking it over an existing finish isn’t going to help, it’ll make it unsightly like what we see here. If it was cleaned and just built up to that extreme thickness, well that’s telling as well, huh?

 

As Arthur states, a piece of Japanese history has been destroyed, not preserved. This might not be as bad as an amateur polish on a Nihonto (a trained katchushi could probably repair it) it approaches that level of poor restoration.

[chris covington]

  On 4/27/2023 at 4:27 PM, GN174 said:

The guy in Japan that produces the amazing fake JIngasa often seen in Juace he is so good I am afraid to buy any.  I don't think we should limit to Europe if we are on subject as I am sure there are plenty coming out of Japan and other parts of the world. 

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I think we should certainly create a new post on Japanese made fakes, too. That would deserve it's own thread I think. The more we as collectors, buys, and students know about some of the more unsavory practices the better we can spot them at auctions and other places. I'm often shocked at how poorly informed some folks are considering the huge sums of money exchanging hands! But that's the thing, people hoard information, or release questionable information because an ignorant community is more accepting, right? 

[Miura]

  On 4/27/2023 at 4:27 PM, GN174 said:

The guy in Japan that produces the amazing fake JIngasa often seen in Juace he is so good I am afraid to buy any.  I don't think we should limit to Europe if we are on subject as I am sure there are plenty coming out of Japan and other parts of the world. 

Expand  

Hi Graham,

Id hate to leave a business partner hanging so I will give you some good advice regarding the fakes and internet auctions that Jauce and buyee serve for free:  Find a good advisor who really knows what he/she is doing and is honest enough to give you an unbiased opinion that isn't trying an angle on you. In my own case, I charge for my services.  After being defrauded recently, I now charge up front or on retainer.   

[Bugyotsuji]

Some of the scarily well-made Japanese stuff coming up is likely from more recent katchushi with experience and native genius, like Ichiro for example.

 

(A little birdie told me that one dealer bought up quite a bit of his stock way back when, and that could be part of what is leaking out in dribs and drabs...)

[Miura]

  On 4/28/2023 at 5:15 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Some of the scarily well-made Japanese stuff coming up is likely from more recent katchushi with experience and native genius, like Ichiro for example.

 

(A little birdie told me that one dealer bought up quite a bit of his stock way back when, and that could be part of what is leaking out in dribs and drabs...)

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I remember seeing a lot of his stuff appear on the market around 10 years ago.  I think you are right, too much at one time will drive prices down. Some is pretty good art. The kabutos were never that good for some reason though.  I dont mean as art, I mean as kabuto.

[chris covington]

So, our club girls are getting ready for the disco. They have fake eyebrows, fake hair, and more make-up than anyone should ever have on. They get their dresses on and meet up. Each one is wearing a very different outfit. Suddenly they decide to mix and match like a toddler picking out their own outfit!?! What gives? Everything was matching and looking good, but for some reason they swapped articles of clothing and accessories and they’re not looking so great. Like everything with these girls, in the dim light, things look good; in bright light, maybe not so much.

 

Many of us have seen this happen in the Nihonto world. A shady dealer has a nice sword with an otherwise plain tsuba on it (or more likely a nice iron tsuba, but something that isn’t flashy). He also has a lower quality sword that has a fancy *looking* tsuba on it (it might be low end when you inspect it, but again it *looks* fancy). What does he do? He swaps them! He’ll still get the same for that lower end sword as he would have gotten, but now that higher end sword looks even better with a fancy tsuba on it. He can charge even more for it now! A simple swap and money was made. Here’s the problem, both swords had authentic full koshirae. Now those koshirae are composite and broken up, for no reason other than a few extra dollars. A bit of cultural vandalism for a buck.

 

Here we are presented with an original Kaga armor. It has matching sangu and a nifty Kaga maedate. This is an all-original matching armor. It might need a little cleaning up and care, but it is a pretty nice looking armor.

 

 

1. Original condition

 

For some inexplicable reason, when it was cleaned and resold it suddenly got all new sangu and maedate. This went from an all-original matching armor to a composite armor. Let’s look it over.

 

2. cleaned and altered condition

 

The original maedate had the Kaga symbol. On the red helmets a few posts above the same symbol can be found (I’ve heard this isn’t a kamon but more of a logo or symbol, so I won’t call it a kamon). This type of maedate was pretty common on Kaga made armors. Suddenly when it is for sale that original maedate is gone and another is in place (although the replacement was advertised as the original, “Original maedate crest with ponytail kashira date.“). This is a more complex maedate, and to some, more attractive. The fact the maedate was advertised as original, even though we can clearly see in the before photos it had a different crest should throw up some red flags. There is our first swap, for no reason.

 

3. Original maedate

4. another example of a Kaga armor with same maedate

 

 

5. replacement maedate

 

Now check out the kote. The original fabric is a blue-green linen with some sparse white detail. This same fabric is on the haidate, as well (I assume the suneate, too, but can’t be sure based on the photos available). We can also see the shape of the splints on the forearm. Of particular interest, look at how the chains connect the splints, there are numerous holes that go up each splint with kusari between. When the armor is cleaned and offered for sale, we have all new sangu! The fabric is greener in color and appears to be silk with a lot more detail. The splints on the kote are flatter. You can also really see the holes between the splints, and there are only a few, with no kusari, very unlike the original kote. The haidate has the different green silk fabric as well. This is a whole new sangu set. This is not the original sangu to the armor, but a similar replacement. Why? Well, look at the chainmail on the left arm. There is some missing mail right at the inside of the elbow. Between the splints there is chain missing. There are some holes in the blue fabric at the armpits. This sangu needs work. Maybe it is beyond the craftsman’s ability? Or maybe it is quicker and easier to just swap them out. Why repair anything at all, when you can just swap? Also, the new sangu have silk instead of linen. Silk is nicer and fancier, if you have a silk backed sangu in better condition, well it becomes more appealing to the eye, right? So, another swap.

 

6. close up of original sangu fabric

 

7. close up of replacement fabric

 

8. original kote, note the damage to the chainmail and where the chainmail connects to the splints

 

9. replacement chainmail, also note the splints and the holes where the chain would attach

 

10. original haidate, the fabric is from the original sangu

 

11. replacement haidate and replacement fabric

 

Now let’s check out those suneate. Are they the same? Well, the pre-cleaned photos only show so much. If I was a betting man, I’d say no though. Why? Look at the kiko at the knees. The original armor had dark blue fabric, purple thread, orange odoshi and light blue edging. Now take a good look at the suneate knees. Well, that doesn’t match! Brown fabric, red odoshi (unsure of the thread) and light blue edging. We can also see the suneate have fabric that matches the rest of the replacement sangu fabric. Another swap for no reason.

 

12. original suneate with kiko at the knees that matches the rest of the armor

 

13. replacement suneate with mismatched kiko

So, what’s the big deal? New sangu, no biggie; except we had an all original armor, with original sangu, maedate, etc. that has been broken apart for absolutely no reason, other than quick "repair" and or sale. I am hopeful the new owner was given the old sangu and maedate, to keep the original set together. The armor went from a full original set to a composite armor for absolutely no good reason. Maybe the owner can ask to have to original sangu, if it hasn’t already been composited into another armor? I hope they paid composite armor prices and not full gusoku price. The steel did polish up nice, but otherwise it is a bit of cultural vandalism. 

 

People want to trust, it is in our nature. We want to believe in something or someone. Caveat emptor. 

 

Best regards,

Chris

 

 

 

 

[GN174]

If someone replaces a Sangu set with one is the same style but probably better condition I would not be bothered as a buyer. I have plenty of Sangu sets where the silk is destroyed by age and these are very hard to display. I think people forget that they used to replace parts of their armour at the time (edo) and unlikely the original samurai owner would walk around in an old torn sangu set. If the piece is correct then to be a purest to the point of a Sangu or a meadate (which they original owners often disposed off before battle themselves) to me seems like overkill for the sake of overkill. Restoration in all antiques is very common place. The sword guys have their blades polished and fitting restored if needed, and so why is armour any different. You can display or really enjoy an box of bits? it might be your preference  but to say serious collectors don't have items restored would be complete nonsense. Seem a very naive position you are taking. 

 

How do you know the Sangu in the first picture was original set? Very keen to understand how you know. 

[GN174]

  On 5/3/2023 at 3:32 PM, chris covington said:

The steel did polish up nice, but otherwise it is a bit of cultural vandalism. 

 

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assume you mean Iron and looks like it was oiled rather than polished if we are seeking to be correct 

[chris covington]

  On 5/3/2023 at 4:09 PM, GN174 said:

If someone replaces a Sangu set with one is the same style but probably better condition I would not be bothered as a buyer. I have plenty of Sangu sets where the silk is destroyed by age and these are very hard to display. I think people forget that they used to replace parts of their armour at the time (edo) and unlikely the original samurai owner would walk around in an old torn sangu set. If the piece is correct then to be a purest to the point of a Sangu or a meadate (which they original owners often disposed off before battle themselves) to me seems like overkill for the sake of overkill. Restoration in all antiques is very common place. The sword guys have their blades polished and fitting restored if needed, and so why is armour any different. You can display or really enjoy an box of bits? it might be your preference  but to say serious collectors don't have items restored would be complete nonsense. Seem a very naive position you are taking. 

 

How do you know the Sangu in the first picture was original set? Very keen to understand how you know. 

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Hi Grey,

 

So, that really depends on the buyer, I guess, huh? What does the buyer think they are getting and what is the seller selling it as? If the buyer thinks they are getting a gusoku (for clarification I am using the term as a fully matched armor made to be fully matched, I realize that term has some ambiguity depending on the era and region) and it has parts swapped out, particularly parts used to enhance the salability, well, that’s a problem wouldn’t you agree?

 

This armor is of rather late manufacture, I think we can agree on that; late-Edo? How many sets of sangu would it have had? I don’t know, but I would wager not many, if more than one. If it was a Muromachi armor, yeah, no doubt. You’re asking me to prove something that is impossible, though. I can ask the same question in reverse, but that isn’t fair either. The original owner could have switched out sangu 500 times, sure, but we need to deal with likelihood not possibility, and I don’t think it’s likely.  What we know for sure is that it had an appropriate set before this superfluous swap, and these are facts we can realistically talk about. In my line of work the simplest answer is usually the right one. This Kaga armor had sangu that was completely appropriate for it’s original manufacture. It is fair to assume that set, that it had before, is likely the original one, even if it isn't, it is what came down to us through history.

 

Next, we have to consider this item historically. Yes, in the Edo period and before they would mix and match pieces to keep it alive, but at some point (in the case of armor, more than a century and a half ago) it goes from being military kit to artifact of cultural value. They are no longer the same, nor should they be treated that way. While the samurai who owned it might not have walked around with a torn sangu, and he might have upgraded, there is a point where we need to treat this differently, and I think historically we are past that point. It is now appropriate to preserve these items, not keep them running as military kit incase the Mongolians invade again. Anything else should raise some serious red flags.

 

Finally, let’s look at the old set of sangu and compare it a little to the new set. Look at the urushi finish. On the old set the urushi finish matches the finish of rest of the main body of the armor. The bottom most lame of the dou is urushi, as are all of the gesan and kanagu mawari. This has a nice matte finish. The new set has a much higher gloss. It is particularly notable on the suneate and haidate. A bit of polish could shine everything else up, or bring it down to a matte finish, but that’s not what we are seeing in the photos, these do not match.

 

As for the maedate, well we know it didn’t come with the hairy kamon, because it was sold with the Kaga beetle horns. We also know from many extant examples that Kaga armor from this time period included the Kaga beetle horns as a standard maedate. Is it the original maedate that came with it when it first was made? Again, you are asking me to prove the impossible as above. If we ask questions like that, we can ask, is the helmet original to the armor? Are the sode original to the armor? Maybe the entire thing is composite from multiple armors, and it was relacquered in the Meiji era to look like a gusoku? How far can we or should we take it? I’m more willing to take the original sale and the original parts it came with in good faith, over this restoration (and when we condiser the title of this thread… well that makes me even less likely to trust it). When it is specifically advertised as “Original maedate crest with ponytail kashira date,” but we know that hairy maedate is not what was in the original sale, well, the whole thing is called into question, or at least it is in my mind.  

 

As for restoration, of course, we need to restore our antiques. Of course, swords are repolished (I have a few I need to send out). Of course, kodogu need to be repaired when dropped or mishandled. Of course, saya need to be replaced from decades of accumulated dirt. As I mentioned above, you don’t just swap out tsuba to get a little more for the sword, and say, “well, in the past samurai would swap tsuba based on their tastes…” That isn’t restoration, that is justification of bad actions. Restoration and parts swapping are not the same. They aren’t in the sword world, and they aren’t in any other field of serious antiques and collecting that I know of (at least not without disclosure, and they certainly wouldn't call a swapped part original if it wasn't). Not naïve, just calling it like it is.

 

Best regards,

 

Chris

[chris covington]

  On 5/3/2023 at 5:45 PM, GN174 said:

assume you mean Iron and looks like it was oiled rather than polished if we are seeking to be correct 

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I was using it a bit colloquially.  

[GN174]

how do you know the first seller hadn't already swapped out the sangu - I don't know how you would know, please share this knowledge, 

 

Did the other seller sell it with the maedate in your first picture?, dealers in Japan do swap parts around and break up sets for profit, while I don't like to see that it does happen, The hair looks like it is pushed into the tehen (removable plume) in my opinion. 

 

Sangu set is matching, gusoku I understand means matched rather than made to match as you have stated, 

 

The kabuto, mempo, sode and dou are all matched, as are the kote, hiadate and suneate - which is a matched armour 

[Arthur G]

  On 5/3/2023 at 6:10 PM, GN174 said:

how do you know the first seller hadn't already swapped out the sangu - I don't know how you would know, please share this knowledge, 

 

Did the other seller sell it with the maedate in your first picture?, dealers in Japan do swap parts around and break up sets for profit, while I don't like to see that it does happen, The hair looks like it is pushed into the tehen (removable plume) in my opinion. 

 

Sangu set is matching, gusoku I understand means matched rather than made to match as you have stated, 

 

The kabuto, mempo, sode and dou are all matched, as are the kote, hiadate and suneate - which is a matched armour 

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Why did the seller who chopshopped this armor claim the maedate was original when he swapped it out? Which we can 100% prove.

Let's start with the simple things here. Can you explain that lie? Is this a business practice that you endorse?

[chris covington]

  On 5/3/2023 at 6:10 PM, GN174 said:

how do you know the first seller hadn't already swapped out the sangu - I don't know how you would know, please share this knowledge, 

 

Did the other seller sell it with the maedate in your first picture?, dealers in Japan do swap parts around and break up sets for profit, while I don't like to see that it does happen, The hair looks like it is pushed into the tehen (removable plume) in my opinion. 

 

Sangu set is matching, gusoku I understand means matched rather than made to match as you have stated, 

 

The kabuto, mempo, sode and dou are all matched, as are the kote, hiadate and suneate - which is a matched armour 

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Grey,

 

You're just asking the same questions that I already addressed above. You seem to trust that those sangu weren't original and that the previous dealer had swapped them. I can ask you to prove the unprovable, too: "How do you know that they swapped them out? Can you prove it? How do you know?" This is a little silly. I'm not interested in having a conversation that goes into the schoolyard, let's deal with facts. 

 

We know what it looked like when it was first sold, and we know it was changed. Let's deal with those facts. What it had was period appropriate sangu for both the region and the era. The sangu matched the urushi on the rest of the armor from the photos. It was swapped for sangu that don't match as well. Why? Also, the kusari between the splints of the replaced kote is missing. It is just as damaged at the original set it came with, so even less reason to swap it. The maedate was period appropriate for the region and era, and was a "standard pattern" we've seen on multiple armors, from the same time period and region (There is a photo above). It was replaced with something much more exotic and fancy, why? These swaps were superfluous. "Original maedate crest with ponytail kashira date" if the Kaga beetle wasn't original, the hairy replacement certainly wasn't! It was an even later addition.

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Arthur G]

Like I keep saying, I'll let the man speak for himself because he does a better job than I can.