Kiyomaro Mon Wakizashi

[Promo]

I'm looking forward to hear on NBTHK shinsa results for the blade. You never know until the blade is in Japanese hands. When do you plan to get it shipped?

[Sutraken]

6 minutes ago, Promo said:

I'm looking forward to hear on NBTHK shinsa results for the blade. You never know until the blade is in Japanese hands. When do you plan to get it shipped?

 

Hello Georg, 

 

I plan to ship the wakizashi next year to Japan for a NBTHK hozon shinsa. Besides I want to hear Tanobe Sensei‘s opinion about this sword before the submission. I will also ask some craftsmen to build a new shirasaya and a new habaki for this naginata naoshi. 

 

All the best 

 

[Promo]

Well with that time schedule you should send it by now to make sure everything is within time. For mysterious reasons the watches in Japan seem to take much longer to make circles, or maybe the Japanese have fun on seeing Westerners waiting so eagerly .

Do you want to handle everything yourself, or via an agent? And seriously, if you want an opinion or possibly papers around early 2024, you need to get it sent by now.

[Sutraken]

12 hours ago, Promo said:

Well with that time schedule you should send it by now to make sure everything is within time. For mysterious reasons the watches in Japan seem to take much longer to make circles, or maybe the Japanese have fun on seeing Westerners waiting so eagerly .

Do you want to handle everything yourself, or via an agent? And seriously, if you want an opinion or possibly papers around early 2024, you need to get it sent by now.

 

I know how slowly things can work out nowadays. Nonetheless I am in no hurry to get the shinsa results. I will probably send the wakizashi in the next few months to a shinsa agent, who will hopefully be able to show the sword to Tanobe Sensei prior to the NBTHK evaluation. I own and enjoy this naginata naoshi since February 2022 and I won’t sell it neither with papers nor without any kanteisho. 

[Promo]

Keep us updated when you know what the experts in Japan are thinking. Good luck - keen to find out if they think.

[Rivkin]

On 4/25/2023 at 5:10 PM, reinhard said:

 

 

Regretfully I can offer only a late answer: the forum's functionality prevents me from ignoring the entirety of Guido/dealers loyalty club, but I've tried my best and unfortunately missed an important point.

 

Collecting is a bit too expensive a hobby, in every aspect, to undertake unless it improves one's character or abilities.

 

I am obviously an ill suited example of such "improvement", but one of my teachers many years ago used to task us with observing a specific floor of a museum so we would then discuss pluses and minuses of paintings presented, their selection and placement etc.
The purpose was to nurture a proper officer core.

Modern officer is a sad spectacle - a random figure in search of secure retirement check and sexy uniform, determined to spend his life pushing papers or at worst immolating an enemy at least 1,000 times less significant in resources available to them... Under such circumstances being a proper officer does little save damage one's career, as the main requirement of such, at least according to my teacher, was the ability to develop, adjust and present an opinion even when facing not only enemy's bombardment, but even one's superiors.

 

The sensei was determined to weed of our fears by forcing open arguments on the subject where the rules are as ill defined as the battlefield future and the observations are as objective as battlefield intelligence. The art connoisership.

He would punch those who memorized the museum's catalogue, push those fishing for sensei's opinion so they could then present and develop it as their own (arguably the talent of extreme use to one's career), smack those too scared to offer an opinion, since how one discusses good and bad when the rules are not set and you saw the paintings once, and the catalogue is b&w etc.. This last portion was 60% of the class and the first was probably 10%.

Obviously my sin was being obnaxiously aggressive and unbearably judgemental, paintings and human race concerned, for which I was burned many times. Man, I am going hear no end of it if the piece comes back judged as Kiyomaro. Serves me right.

Our teacher's efforts did little to change the percentages, but they did change the behavior.
The passives 60% learned to openly join opinions of those few capable of having them and explaining why they support the said opinion even when called imbeciles by the superiors.

10% of industrious book memorizers (i.e. "the girls") would spend a lot of extra time building arguments around their readings.

Exactly two people in the class learned to build arguments why the composition is weak here, the color is strong there, and the museum's curator is a random lazy bumpkin who could not be bothered to accent this through proper lighting.

 

I shiver to imagine what the merry crowd would feel when instead of scary imposition "who decided its Kiyomaro and why", after half a year in the field they would be forced to participate not in cantare della gran belezza, but grand review of why we got so many of our own dispatched and how our decision making needs to be improved.

Aufrichtig und Geradlinig... Not something one learns from drinking at DTI with random classes. In the past at least we could rely on occasional mass slaughter to keep the traditions alive.

 

[Sutraken]

Rivkin, you try to say aufrichtig und gradlinig… Please don’t abuse my native language. I am in no way part of the pc movement. I only show some kind of contenance towards subjects like you. Otherwise I would show you quite bluntly what kind of traditional German I am.

[Promo]

We are looking at a truly marvellous blade. It shows a it was done by a skilled smith with plenty of details to be found. Your posts though tend to focus on who made the blade, not this much on what it actually is and what you can see in it. And if I may allow myself to tell from a more neutral view, you seem to react very sensitive to comments regarding who made the sword. Since you'll submit it to Shinsa you'll find out. I had accepted different opinions for my blade as well, based on them you actually can learn a lot. If you for example use Kirill's comment and leave out the part where he speaks on your blade, I personally consider it extremely interesting since they mention particular details and aspects of a specific smith in a way you will not be able to find them in a book or elsewhere online. So just keep open minded - at worst you have a super nice Wakizashi which in that quality could get a very interesting attribution you may had never considered, at best your suspicion even gets confirmed. After all a win anyway.

[Alex A]

Its a nice blade and can see why so many folk like it, 

 

Being honest, i find the Nioi-guchi a bit inconsistent and activity a bit erratic 

 

No disrespect to the owner, whoever made it had talent but i bet even they would say its not one of their best.

 

Nice to own though.

 

 

[Sutraken]

Georg, I guess you read the title of this thread, right ? I called it a wakizashi from the Kiyomaro mon to underline the fact that there is still room for suspicion about who exactly from the above mentioned school made this blade. Rivkin thinks he knows everything about me, my generation and this particular sword. He is nothing more than a nasty moron who wants to be important. His knowledge is nothing that I can not find in books or online. I don’t want to educate anyone here about the question what can be seen in Ray‘s pictures. I think everyone here can find kantei information about Kiyomaro and his mon online and judge by themselves if this naginata naoshi fits the characteristics sufficient or not. As I wrote before, a more or less definite result can only be issued by a NBTHK shinsa. 

[Baba Yaga]

On 4/25/2023 at 5:20 PM, reinhard said:

 

You better go to sleep and consider this tomorrow again.

 

reinhard

 

Guess what, I feel the same   Not worth the roll in the mud.

[Promo]

Do you really feel the necessity to call someone a nasty moron, just because he told you that in his opinion the hamon towards the edge is usually different for Kiyomaro, as well as speaking on the jigane? From a third party view this is a really harsh and not needed personal attack I would neither do online nor offline. If you feel he is wrong, then directly address his critics and point out why you think he is wrong with what he says. But please do not use words like this. You are otherwise risking ot ruin your own thread on a marvellous blade with expressions like this. Be polite, accept that there are different opinions than yours, and wait for the day you might get papered assistance from Japan which supports your opinion. Just like I did.

[Sutraken]

Georg, I am sure you didn’t read every post Rivkin posted in this thread, right ?

I don’t criticize his nihonto related opinion about activities inside the hamon or the hada being coarse. I criticize him, because he provoked me and even Ray Singer with his polemic rhetoric and continued to suggest that people of the younger generation can’t stand risks or moral responsibility for their actions. I don’t see any necessity to stay polite, when a person like Rivkin tries to play games like this. 

[Jacques D.]

The sugata of nakago does not fit with the sugata of kiyomaro or Taira Nobuhide. For the rest, as I did not have the blade in my hands, I abstain.

[Sutraken]

Here I share two pictures taken from the book „Kiyomaro’s 200th birthday“, which show a naginata naoshi wakizashi with a sugata identical to mine. 

 

 

[Sutraken]

[Sutraken]

Here is a picture from the above mentioned book showing another example of this nakago sugata. This blade is a tanto.

[Sutraken]

The above posted naginata naoshi wakizashi is part of a special order daiso made by Kiyomaro. I guess it is his famous tokubetsu juyo daisho. 

 

This image is also taken from the book „Kiyomaro celebrating the 200th anniversary of the artist’s birth“.

[Alex A]

Contrary to what some may say, judging sugata from photos can be the most misleading aspect, for me.

[Matsunoki]

Nakago sugata looks pretty good to me compared to your researched examples. Maybe @Jacques D. would kindly point out the differences? 

Lovely sword. Well done. 

[Jacques D.]

The sword nakago discussed here has no taper while the Kiyomaro nakago always has taper whether it is a katana, a wakizashi or a tanto

[reinhard]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

The sword nakago discussed here has no taper while the Kiyomaro nakago always has taper whether it is a katana, a wakizashi or a tanto

Supposed the nakago is mumei but in original shape, i.e. the blade was made in "naginata-naoshi-style", you are correct.

Supposed the blade was originally made a naginata and was shortened later (naginata-naoshi) you are not.

 

reinhard

[Guest Simon R]

Stefan,

You seem proud about your standing as "a traditional German" of a certain "generation".

So why tarnish that distinguished image with name-calling?

 

When you resort to phases like "nasty moron" you have already lost your argument in the eyes of many.

 

(Nice poem, by the way.)

 

Simon

[Jacques D.]

7 hours ago, reinhard said:

 

Supposed the blade was originally made a naginata and was shortened later (naginata-naoshi) you are not.

 

reinhard

 

No, unless they invented the thickening file. The waki presented here is made in the naginata-naoshi style as shown by the boshi.

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashinaginata-naoshi-mumei-shikkake/

[Hoshi]

The topic of mumei Kyomaro has been covered quite extensively in the past. It never made any sense, at any point in history, to erase a Kyomaro mei. You can take the best of Kyondo, erase the mei, and NBHTK might pass it as Kyomaro as this is the closest stylistic match. This is probably what happened with Tsuruta's mumei blades. We are way past the age of 'honest' suriage. At the end of the day attribution is a judgement on the quality of the blade. The sword is way above the average of what is generally shared here, and expresses sand-like grains of dispersed ara nie, which is a style that appeals more to some and less to others. Along with flawless standing out hada, these are generally traits that have a great appeal in the West, and less with Japanese collectors, with caveats applying to certain makers. 

 

Also the name-calling exercise here, calling people "nasty morons" reflects poorly on the entire hobby and turns people off. Reality is that there aren't many knowledgeable old sword collectors willing to chime in online in the first place, and these types of interaction will shrink the pool even further towards topics of lesser interest. 

 

[Sutraken]

The nakago of my naginata naoshi has taper towards the end of the tang. The kasane becomes thinner. I made two pictures of the nakago, but unfortunately the requested details can’t be seen very clearly. 

 

 

[Sutraken]

The second picture 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

@Jacques D.……the latest image shows definite nakago taper. Would you agree? Images, as you often say, can be misleading and it’s easy to jump to conclusions?

[Jacques D.]

The devil is in the details, then you have to be able to distinguish it. For me, the form of this nakago does not correspond to what Kiyomaro did. The nakago shown here lacks elegance;  compare with a typical example of Kiyomaro (extract from Kiyomaro taikan). Taper, sori, nakago jiri are different. Now I don't say that it can't be from Kiyomaro or his school, I say that the nakago doesn't fit, nothing else. 

 

[Jacques D.]

Another one from the same book