Kiyomaro Mon Wakizashi

[Sutraken]

Hello Gents, 

 

I want to share with you some pictures of my Kiyomaro mon naginata naoshi o wakizashi, which I bought last year from Ray Singer. Although it is mumei, it is a ubu sword with a nagasa of 51,5cm. The possibility that Kiyomaro himself made this great soshu den wakizashi is very high. A final attribution should be given by a NBTHK shinsa. I hope you enjoy. 

 

All the best 

[Vermithrax16]

That's a beautiful sword!

[Toryu2020]

Exceptional.

[Sutraken]

Thank you very much. 

[ChrisW]

Thank you for sharing!

[Franco D]

Hello Stefan,

 

Thank you for sharing these excellent images of this unique and exciting naginata naoshi o-wakizashi. Could you please describe the lighting techniques and type of camera used in taking these images?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Regards,

Franco

[Guest Simon R]

Hi Stefan,

 

That is an absolutely exquisite blade which looks very much like the work of the master tosho Kiyomaro.

My only question is why the seller, Ray - a person for whom I have the greatest respect and know to be extremely knowledgeable of Nihonto - had not already put the blade through NBTHK shinsa himself? 
Certainly, if I possessed a credible, potential Masamune, Kotetsu or Kiyomaru, I would have it 100% authenticated by the highest accredited body of experts before even considering selling it on.

Ray?

 

Anyhow, just my immediate thoughts. Congratulations on a phenomenally beautiful blade.

 

Simon

 

[Sutraken]

Thank you for the replies. These pictures were taken by Ray Singer, so I don‘t know which techniques he used. 

 

Ray sold me this wakizashi last year as a commission piece. He never owned it. This naginata naoshi doesn’t have a high class Japanese made shirasaya. The current shirasaya was probably made in the US. The polish is excellent and seems to be very old. I am quite sure this sword was not in Japan for a very long time. 

[Guest Simon R]

2 hours ago, Sutraken said:

Thank you for the replies. These pictures were taken by Ray Singer, so I don‘t know which techniques he used. 

 

Ray sold me this wakizashi last year as a commission piece. He never owned it. This naginata naoshi doesn’t have a high class Japanese made shirasaya. The current shirasaya was probably made in the US. The polish is excellent and seems to be very old. I am quite sure this sword was not in Japan for a very long time. 

Thank you, Stefan, for such a detailed response to my observation. That explains a great deal and I truly hope that your wonderful blade passes shinsa with flying colours!

[Sutraken]

Thank you, Simon. 

 

I will send the wakizashi next year to Japan for a hozon shinsa. Perhaps I can even get a Tanobe Sensei sayagaki for a new made shirasaya. 

 

 

[Ray Singer]

10 hours ago, SRDRowson said:

My only question is why the seller, Ray - a person for whom I have the greatest respect and know to be extremely knowledgeable of Nihonto - had not already put the blade through NBTHK shinsa himself? 

 

 

Hi Simon, as Stefan mentioned this sword was never one that I owned. In almost all cases, swords that I list for sale are consignments. It is not my process to purchase swords to sell for a profit, even when there is potential in terms of a lack of papers or papers that I do not agree with. In those cases I often recommend that the owners resend to shinsa, but that rarely happens and typically the swords comes to me for consignment as it is. In this case, I may let the buyer know my personal opinion and encourage them to shinsa again as discussed below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

What a beautiful sword! And lovely polish.

[Sutraken]

Thank you, Brian. 

[Guest Simon R]

22 hours ago, Ray Singer said:

 

Hi Simon, as Stefan mentioned this sword was never one that I owned. In almost all cases, swords that I list for sale are consignments. It is not my process to purchase swords to sell for a profit, even when there is potential in terms of a lack of papers or papers that I do not agree with. In those cases I often recommend that the owners resend to shinsa, but that rarely happens and typically the swords comes to me for consignment as it is. In this case, I may let the buyer know my personal opinion and encourage them to shinsa again as discussed below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many thanks, Ray - that all makes perfect sense.

 

Please accept my sincere apologies if it felt like I was doubting you in any way. I just found it extraordinary that such an incredible blade - which really does look like what it is thought to be - had not already been submitted to shinsa post-haste!

 

Very Best wishes,

 

Simon

[reinhard]

A beautiful and spectacular blade.
Nevertheless I am leaning towards Taira (no) Nobuhide as the maker of this blade as far as one can tell from pixels.
Congrats anyway.

reinhard

[Rivkin]

Good thing about being universally hated is one can be honest.

I don't think its Kiyomaro.

Its indeed his style and you see such blades with green papers to Kiyomaro in Japan probably once or twice a year.

To me there are two issues. First, the portion of the hamon towards the edge is non-distinct, harsh and glassy, while with Kiyomaro one often sees it gradually reducing to ko-nie and rather beautiful nioi, kind of like Sa - large, bright nie on top, soft flowing nioi on the bottom.

Second issue - jigane is a bit harsh, in good Kiyomaro its more consistent, distinctive, granulated, bright, chikei and ji nie are more pronounced, while here besides ara nie there is not that much.

 

A later work in Kiyomaro style, of good quality.

[Sutraken]

56 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

Good thing about being universally hated is one can be honest.

I don't think its Kiyomaro.

Its indeed his style and you see such blades with green papers to Kiyomaro in Japan probably once or twice a year.

To me there are two issues. First, the portion of the hamon towards the edge is non-distinct, harsh and glassy, while with Kiyomaro one often sees it gradually reducing to ko-nie and rather beautiful nioi, kind of like Sa - large, bright nie on top, soft flowing nioi on the bottom.

Second issue - jigane is a bit harsh, in good Kiyomaro its more consistent, distinctive, granulated, bright, chikei and ji nie are more pronounced, while here besides ara nie there is not that much.

 

A later work in Kiyomaro style, of good quality.

 

I see nothing but envy and resentment in your words, but that is okay: some collectors know these feelings in such situations. A prime example is Georg’s thread about his Masayuki. The majority supports the collector and his finding on the way to shinsa, but a small minority tries to blame a sword as gimei, only to get rid of their frustration and envy. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Sounded more like a dose of reality than anything sinister. The wakizashi is very nice and we are all hoping that you have a good result at Shinsa.

[Rivkin]

I was told in the past that my judgements on Kiyomaro are shallow being based on but a handful of his iconic works and missing/ignorant of everything else. Tough truth.

 

I can take therefore a bit of responsibility - since you and Ray feel strongly its a high chance Kiyomaro and almost certainly his school, a wager is appropriate. I'll be betting on it not having Kiyomaro, Den Kiyomaro, Kiyomaro Den in the attribution. 

 

[Tom Darling]

Has there ever been a  mumei blade of Kiyomaro known?

[Sutraken]

9 minutes ago, Tom Darling said:

Has there ever been a  mumei blade of Kiyomaro known?

 

Aoi has sold at least two mumei Kiyomaro blades in the past. One katana and one naginata naoshi wakizashi. Both are suriage and mumei. Both have hozon status. 

[Sutraken]

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumei-yamaura-kiyomaro/

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-mumei-den-kiyomaro/

 

Here are the Aoi Art links to the mentioned swords made by Kiyomaro

 

 

[Tom Darling]

1 hour ago, Sutraken said:

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumei-yamaura-kiyomaro/

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/wakizashi-mumei-den-kiyomaro/

 

Here are the Aoi Art links to the mentioned swords made by Kiyomaro

 

I am not surprised, I stopped buying from AOI many many years ago.  Are there any shown in  Kiyomaro  or Kotetsu book or any other Japanese book?   It would be nice to know.

 

[Rivkin]

I did paper one. Kyu-gunto fit done in a rather brutal fashion. My feeling in Meiji period he was valued but not tremendously so. I had a nightmare selling it (and for peanuts basically) as every person on ebay felt his duty to tell me how awful it is to sell mumei shinshinto blades.

On the other hand never heard of ubu mumei Kiyomaro.

Attributions to him tend to hold (not green papers to nijimei). One of the strongest jigane makers in shinshinto with very bright itame and a distinctive hamon with nioi base which changes a lot with light direction and topped by nie clouds with rather large nie crystals.

 

[Ray Singer]

On 4/23/2023 at 1:33 PM, Rivkin said:

since you and Ray feel strongly its a high chance Kiyomaro and almost certainly his school, a wager is appropriate.

 

It seems that words are being put in my mouth and I am being referenced in a wager on an attribution I did not give here. Please look through this thread carefully. At no point did I say that "there is a high chance this sword is by Kiyomaro". It was sold as what I felt was a high quality Shinshinto blade which I recommended to send for shinsa. It certainly was not sold at a price level anywhere remotely near those mumei Aoi blades. After the purchase was completed, I shared oshigata with Stefan of examples that I felt aligned with my personal thinking (which I intend to keep private, pending shinsa). This is a good example of why I ask to keep my assessments private with the individual I am speaking to, as it is easy (and a common occurrence) to be misquoted and even to be credited with statements and judgements that I did not give. Like Stefan and others here, I am also looking forward to hearing what opinion the shinsa team gives.

 

Regards,

Ray

 

 

 

[Brian]

Ray, the rest of us took it exactly as you say, and the number of compliments here shows that it's an awesome sword no matter what the attribution. Quality over name for sure.
Outcome will be interesting, but doesn't have a huge bearing on what we can see. Buyer did well, and I am sure the price was more than fair.
 

[Rivkin]

I often look at threads like this one and wonder - why do the participants collect nihonto in the first place?

If its driven by a genuine interest in nihonto specifically, why no one can substantiate an opinion?

If its a social club where you cover for "your boys", it can be done frankly in every subject and every community. No need to study, travel, invest etc.. Think about the amount of time and money saved by shifting to politics.

If its about being close to weapons, one expects at least some measure of valor to residually "rub off" the participants. There is obviously none: secret opinions to be revealed when they match the shinsa and no desire to defend what was stated publicly. Risk aversion taking to the extreme.
What's exactly the point then?

[Baba Yaga]

I think the answer to your questions is all the above. The Japanese have lost mush of its culture and cling to the ever changing rules of Nihonto. MMA and Brazilian Jujitsu has proven a superior fighting style over Karate and Kung Fu.  Tea is something mixed in a glass and sold at Whole Foods. War time Japanese swords are a tremendous collectable and study. Americanizing Japan has always been on the rise. It's just another brick in the wall. 

[reinhard]

On 4/24/2023 at 11:17 PM, Rivkin said:

"I often look at threads like this one and wonder - why do the participants collect nihonto in the first place?"

Good question.

"If its driven by a genuine interest in nihonto specifically, why no one can substantiate an opinion?"

Usually we do. Sometimes beyond sufficient informations.

Personally I prefer to not state definitely on the basis of pixels.

This is no problem for you as it seems.

"What's exactly the point then?"

There is no point. Just a member sharing an interesting blade with the community

 

reinhard

 

[reinhard]

9 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

The Japanese have lost mush of its culture and cling to the ever changing rules of Nihonto. MMA and Brazilian Jujitsu has proven a superior fighting style over Karate and Kung Fu.  Tea is something mixed in a glass and sold at Whole Foods. War time Japanese swords are a tremendous collectable and study.

 

You better go to sleep and consider this tomorrow again.

 

reinhard