Naoe Shizu tanto

[MJS]

Hi guys,

I have an opportunity to buy a naoe shizu tanto, mumei, with NBTHK TH papers from March 2018. I consider myself pretty much a beginner in this field, and would greatly appreciate any opinions on this blade. 

One question that I have: there is some damage on the ha near the hamachi, which to me looks like "scuff marks" from sheathing/drawing the blade. I imagine that this would not be a very big deal. Is that indeed the case or is it a real problem?

Another is is this: the vast majority of Naoe Shizu tanto are unsigned. Is there any approach through which I could pinpoint better a particular smith, period or other detail?

Finally, the nakago seems to have a "bare" area where there is significantly less rust. This is also visible on the photograph that comes with the paper. What could such a focal change be caused by? Could it be related to mounting during a longer period? A sticker/marker that was later removed? The current owner tells me he also has no idea.

Thanks,

Mark

[Ray Singer]

Hi Mark, this looks like a nice piece. Overall seems healthy, and the polish issue does not seem to be anything significant. The suriage is late (appears to have been significantly shortened during Edo period, perhaps late Edo) and it's likely none of the nakago is original. It is also possible that there was a gimei / kinzogan-mei that was removed in the middle of the nakago where the patina is the thinnest. But overall this looks like an attractive tanto. 

 

Best regards, 

Ray 

 

 

[MJS]

I realized that there is no reasonable image of the nakago, so here goes:

[Ray Singer]

Given how the horimono flares out in the same place where the patina disappears, this also shows that the thickness has been reduced in that area. The mekugi-ana is also very fresh. Was it recently placed into an unrelated koshirae? 

[MJS]

9 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

It is also possible that there was a gimei / kinzogan-mei that was removed in the middle of the nakago where the patina is the thinnest.

 

Hi Ray, that's an interesting option that I had not yet considered. Looking at the image of the nakago, I am not entirely sure that such is the case here though. The hi shows the same lack of patina, and I would think it would be mostly spared if a mei was removed.

 

5 minutes ago, Ray Singer said:

Given how the horimono flares out in the same place where the patina disappears, this also shows that the thickness has been reduced in that area. The mekugi-ana is also very fresh. Was it recently placed into an unrelated koshirae? 

 

Yes! I think (will ask the seller for confirmation) that the koshirae that it now comes in, is relatively recent. You think that some patina/nakago was removed to make it fit?!

 

Mark

[Ray Singer]

Yes that is the other possibility I was considering that the reduction in thickness to the nakago kasane and the mekugi-ana that was recently added all relate to marriage into an unrelated koshirae. 

 

Best regards, 

Ray 

 

[MJS]

I could imagine that's totally "not done". Even if it was mumei.

 

[Ray Singer]

Marriage into unrelated koshirae happens on a regular basis, it is not uncommon to see swords in one shop in Japan with no koshirae and then to show up on another dealer site now having a koshirae (or for the same blade to show up on one site after another, each time with a different koshirae). Drilling a new hole in a nakago to make this happen is less acceptable, but I would not consider this to be a deal breaker if I otherwise liked the sword. There are individuals who can restore a nakago, fix the edges of a newly drilled mekugi-ana, normalize a nakago patina etc. As said, this looks like a nice piece, I am not trying to dissuade you from purchase, just explaining what I see.

[Mark S.]

Does the nakago condition and shape match the picture on NBTHK THozon papers?  If they papered it this way, then at least they felt condition was rather good.

[SteveM]

Yes, if the condition was good enough to get the item papered TH, there is no need to overthink a slight blemish here and there on a blade of this age. 

[Matsunoki]

Mark, hello

The area that you have circled in red looks like deliberate abrasion to me. If you look at the other side of the blade in exactly the same location…..is that a crack or a running opening in the forging that I have also circled in red? Could the scratching be there to hide it on the other side if it goes all the way through? It may be nothing but I’d ask a few more questions if it were me. Better to be cautious beforehand than regretful afterwards.

Please let us know.

All the best

 Colin

[Jussi Ekholm]

The nakago condition is very apparent on the paper.

 

[Brian]

It's a nice papered sword by a good smith. If the price is acceptable to you, as Ray said...it would be a good sword to own. None of the condition factors seem to be a deal breaker. Just don't overpay compared to what's out there and buy the sword, not the name.

[Matsunoki]

If you enlarge the photo from the paper it shows the side where the abrasions (now?) are and I am still nervous that they are there to cover something up……is that a crack or running flaw I’ve circled? Not trying to spoil it…..just best be sure before committing.

[Soshin]

While the nakago looks worked on and adjusted a fair amount. This is an unfortunate widespread practice of Japanese sword dealer the world over.   I would tend to agree with many of Ray Singer's comments. Nice Tanto with great ji-hada which you would expect to see in a Nao Shizu School sword. Thank you @MJS for sharing.  

[Rivkin]

I guess the question is how much and do you like - otherwise there is no hidden secret here.

Jigane is nice, its "standing out" rather than "fine", but is bright and consistent, utsuri looks attractive.

Nie is a bit weak as on some image you can't see the hamon, which is a sign that it tends towards ko nie and will not be too bright.

The attribution seems solid, masame is quite prominent, periodic gunome with sunagashi... maybe Mino Kanenobu would be an alternative, but its essentially the same name.

Ko wakizashi from Shizu school are uncommon and tend to be desirable.

Its unfortunate it is suriage quite a bit.

 

 

[MJS]

13 hours ago, Brian said:

Just don't overpay compared to what's out there and buy the sword, not the name.

Certainly @Brian. Although it is challenging for me to know what ‘not overpaying’ is. It is hard to find a reasonable price level for a naoe shizu tanto, as they are quite uncommon. The seller suggests that with additional research it might stand a chance at juyo shinsa, but I am not so sure. There are no naoe shizu blades with tokubetsu juyo papers as far as I know so it would have to compete with the very best naoe shizu out there.

Having said that, the seller’s asking price seems reasonable and we can probably come to an agreement.

@Rivkin I think that the hamon issues you noticed are caused by the casual photography setting with bad lighting: I saw no irregularities in nie intensity with the tanto in hand. 
 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think others above me said it well it is quite nice blade (of course with some issues that were discussed). Naoe Shizu is very rare attribution for a tanto, so far I am only aware of 7, 3 Jūyō, 3 Tokubetsu Hozon and 1 unknown.

 

For the Tokubetsu Hozon ones -

Darcy had a very nice one (that came with free Nanbokuchō period katana) for 23,000$. I remember I liked it a lot but it was lot over my budget.

There is the one in this thread for X amount

Aoi Art sold one for 550k yen, and to me that seems like it was an awesome deal: https://www.aoijapan.net/tanto-mumeinaoe-shizu/

I haven't seen any of the Jūyō ones appear on online market

 

Short swords for Nanbokuchō Mino smiths like Kinjū I have seen in range from 850k to 2,5M (Hozon to Jūyō range) yen for the few examples that I have seen sold online.

 

For very rare online sale Aoi Art had Tokubetsu Hozon tanto attributed to Shizu, I believe asking price was 2,2M and it sold very fast if I remember correctly.

[MJS]

On 4/20/2023 at 9:14 AM, Matsunoki said:

is that a crack or running flaw I’ve circled?

 

Hi Colin -- I am not entirely sure what you circled. I see the hamachi and then some embossing shadows. Or do you mean the subtle line-shaped change in color of the steel? 

[Ray Singer]

While it is good to be as careful as possible any time you are making a purchase, the fact that this sword received Tokubetsu Hozon generally validates that the sword is free of cracks (hagire) or other fatal issues. While things may slip by the shinsa team (I know of a rare case) you can generally feel confident that the sword has been checked carefully for cracks.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Hi Colin -- I am not entirely sure what you circled.

Mark, hello.

what bothered me a bit firstly was the scuffing/abrasions you highlighted. Given that the rest of the blade is in excellent polish I ask myself “why are they there”? - especially when they go under the area that is usually protected by the habaki. That did not suggest wear and tear from normal withdrawals from the saya. I ask myself….are they there to disguise something?

Then when I enlarged the image from the papers I don’t see the abrasions but I’ do see what looks like a thin dark line very slightly in from the edge that runs parallel to the edge (not like a hagire) in roughly the same location as the slight opening on the other side.

Of course as Ray says, the papers give some assurance regarding condition but many things can happen to a blade after it has gone through Shinsa. 
I really  am not trying to spoil your purchase and it may be absolutely nothing but you asked for any opinions. My comments are not meant to be an opinion……just think it’s worth having another look at that area both sides or getting a few closeup images at different angles.

Also just another thought regarding the nakago kasane. If/when it had been reduced I would have thought the hi would get narrower rather than wider at that point.

Im guessing a lot of $ are involved and thus who you are buying it from and how well you know them counts for a lot.

I wish  you good luck.

Please let us know and I hope my concerns are ill-founded

All the best

Colin.

 

 

[MJS]

Thanks everyone. Will let you know how this story ends!