Edo Period Cast Tsuba

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, Larason2 said:

asinine

Carlos. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say "stupid"? I do love the way people cherry pick what information they want from a post - no mention of Glens recognition of Ford's accomplishments which were clearly stated. You pick one word you find offensive, this to me also shows a level of frustration. [in all its definitions]

[GRC]

2 hours ago, Jean said:

NMB strongly frowns at people giving other members « birds’ names ».

 

On this point, I would suggest that it seems you misunderstood what I wrote.

I was specifically referring to the use of the title, "the last word", when stating an opinion that wasn't supported by fact.

 

The comment was about the action, not the person in general.

I believe that I have not infringed on that NMB policy in any way.

 

I would still make the case that it is foolish, unwise, misguided, to call an unsubstantiated opinion, "the last word".

 

Anyone, no matter how intelligent or unintelligent, can commit a foolish act.

We're all just people after all.

I think the important part is how we respond to these missteps.

 

Otherwise, I don't believe that any of the statements in my initial post are incorrect.

They are thoughts that should be considered before bestowing too much "authority" onto a single person who is not an authority on this particular subject. 

 

The unfortunate use of the word "asinine" doesn't change that at all.

 

 

2 hours ago, Jean said:

Instead of using unpleasant words

I would love to see that idea followed by everyone...

 

I'm sure we could collectively generate a long list of "unpleasant words" that have been posted by select individuals, across multiple threads related to this topic.

This topic sure seems to get people heated up...

[Spartancrest]

20 minutes ago, GRC said:

This topic sure seems to get people heated up...

Annealed is the correct term I believe. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, I have read the post by GRC.

 

No one answered the subject presented in his post.  He was “immediately called out” for the use of one word!  That may have been a tactful way to “sidestep” the information presented on his post.

 

Now, what is interesting is that a “moderator” immediately “jumped in”.  Where were the moderators and administrator’s when I had to put up with my “crap” from members?

 

I refer you to only a couple (and I reiterate “only a couple”!) of comments from various threads directed towards me below-

 

“I sincerely think that your "crusade" for EDO JIDAI cast iron TSUBA is at its end.”

 

“As for being considered 'a leading expert' or whatever, not my claim so please don't be so rude as to try and demean what I have achieved, it's a strawman argument at best. And if you're looking for a comparable specialist in the craft/technology of tosogu in Japan let me know when you find them please. Spoiler alert, you may be in for a disappointing let down.”

 

“I could go on and on....and such is the dogma we accept without challenge. So I suppose if someone wants to invent a 'hidden' Edo period casting technology to validate crap fake tsuba what's the harm?”

 

“It seems to me that your defence of your theory is becoming somewhat desperate, not to mention distasteful.

 

"It seems my friend Jean has made a good job of holding up the practical side of the discussion, and I've previously written a shed load on the subject here too but some dead horses apparently won't stay dead- (with "beating a dead horse" emoji posted!)

 

“Love it when Ford really gets into a topic. Ford, trust me, your thoughts on this don't get lost. Most of us, including those with differing opinions, love to hear these facts and theories.”

 

“But I waste my time here wading through your Gish Gallop. I have no further interest in engaging in such an ugly and poorly informed discussion.”

 

“But if someone is on a mission (or should I say 'crusade'?) to "prove" that cast TSUBA must have been made in EDO JIDAI in large quantity 'for the masses' (who were they? who would have bought inferior TSUBA, and for which purpose?) only because the technical possibility was given, then there is the danger to use any related information (be it correct or not) as a saving straw.”

 

“In response to Dan's valiant defence I must comment the following.

That Mr Huish asks about cast iron tsuba is not evidence of the fact of cast iron tsuba at all. Reading his other queries it is very obvious the poor man knew practically nothing at all about the subject. A point his actual letter makes abundant clear and is the whole point of his enquiry.”

 

“As the history of sword forging in Japan only started in about 500 CE, it is probably not interesting”

 

“Nope, it’s the knowledge syndrome.

Brian- please grant Dan his wish. Enough- none are so blind as those who won’t see.”

 

“Throwing a childish tantrum isn't the correct path if you're trying to create a wide discourse of knowledge and information.”

 

“Dan, you seem to be the only one concerned about "likes", "views" and titles. You may as well be jealous about stained underpants, given enough time everyone will have them”

 

“To the address of Dan: In fact you don't do any research. You gather passages from texts and present them with your personal interpretation. You use citations out of context to support your opinion, but in fact you lack the very basic knowledge and understanding of many subjects you are dealing with. You post a crude hypothesis - far away of what is known and agreed upon by experts - and are happy to create a turmoil. Everyone is wrong who disagrres, but as a forum community we have a responsibility towards the (newer) members and towards the actual state of knowledge and science.”

 

“Group think. Yeah. One person rebelling against mainstream thought does not a proper contrary argument make. When you have a group of scholars maintaining the same theories, then maybe you can start crying foul.”

 

I could go “on and on”, but you should get the point by now!

 

Just “food for thought”.

 

The belittling, bullying, and Mr. Know it All attitudes were sometimes “hurtful”, but this stuff hasn’t “phased me” in the least!

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

 

[OceanoNox]

I agree that somehow this one word has been taken as a personal insult, when it was not, while ad hominem were directed very quickly without much restraint at others.

 

While this may be cherry picking (and to respond to a message that may have been addressed to me, the Japanese websites I posted were never said to be authorities in the matter, and I was quite honest about it), the people at Asahi Touken have written a post specifically on cast tsuba. My Japanese is not that good, but this is the points I took out (more cherry picking):

① Nakahara Nobuo, who wrote the document, states that they handled broken namban tsuba and the fracture surfaces looked like "zuku".

② The fact that there are little cast iron tsuba around is not illogical, as most of the iron and steel was recycled.

③ This is conjecture, and the writer wishes for a scientific analysis for dating.

https://asahitoken.jp/contents/03_forum/report/forum-B/forum-B-104.html

 

 

※Below is very much not on the topic of cast tsuba, but more about research in tousougu:

As an aside (not about cast iron), there are a few researchers that are actively looking at topics regarding the Japanese sword: it is in Japanese, but there are publicly available research reports of the Kakenhi funds (government fund attributed to a limited number of researchers, after scrutiny of applications). There is specifically Dr. Naoko Naito, of the Osaka museum of history, who is publishing work on Japanese swords and fittings.

Some examples of report for Kakenhi on tousougu:

https://kaken.nii.ac.jp/ja/file/KAKENHI-PROJECT-19H00013/19H00013_2019_seika.pdf

https://kaken.nii.ac.jp/ja/file/KAKENHI-PROJECT-24682001/24682001seika.pdf

[1kinko]

I suggest a read of Chinese Sword Guard Types, Characteristics, and Theory found online (7 April 2023) in Sword Encyclopedia (although the author is highly suspect). Interesting sections on Chinese swords guards, heavily inspired by Japanese design, exported to Japan, nanban, exported to Vietnam, Canton-gata and more. Just food for thought.

[Larason2]

As SpartanCrest rightly acknowledged, I am rather frustrated at these posts now, and the apparently fruitless discussion it has created. Part of me feels I should just abandon it, but I respect GRC’s kind apology. If I have made some ad hominem attacks in the past, I apologize, it was not my intention. 

 

So, I’m just going to direct this to some of GRC’s points. There were many other points made, but I don’t really have time to address them all. Please, when we’re discussing Ford Hallam, keep in mind that he has just come out of the hospital with a serious medical condition and is getting better at home.

 

For my first point, I think GRC is in error when he seems to claim what real “authority” is on the subject. Just because someone has letters behind their name does not mean that they have the appropriate knowledge to address the question. Neither does knowledge relating to Japanese history or metallurgy. Someone who does their PhD in metallurgy with their thesis relating to the properties of some obscure metal when alloyed with steel is not qualified to speak on this topic. Neither is someone with a PhD in Japanese history, if they just believed all the papers they read that said something is cast. Neither is having run a successful antique dealership specializing in tsuba. The truth is, the only person who is really an “expert” on the matter is a person who has knowledge relating to the subject at hand, and the acquisition of this knowledge is independent of other pursuits. Ford Hallam isn’t just a “jeweller.” Among modern produced tsuba, those of Ford Hallam and his school are the only tsuba that serious collectors have any interest in obtaining. If he was deceived on what constitutes cast iron vs. wrought iron, then he wouldn’t be a very good tosogi. If someone refuses to accept his authority based on these grounds, then I don’t know what authority they are prepared to accept.

 

Now, the absence of evidence does hold some weight. In science, as in a lot of other fields, the absence of evidence is often used as evidence that something was unlikely to have existed. This is why, for instance, many archaeologists feel that the claim that the Phoenicians made it to North America is very unlikely. So far, no authentic Phoenician artifacts have been found in North America. Of course, the same was thought of the Vikings, but now we know there is actually abundant evidence. if we were to find some piece of Phoenician refuse accurately dated to Phoenician time in North America, it would show they did, but the relative absence of evidence is still evidence that they didn’t go much. So no evidence isn’t proof of something, but it is a sort of evidence. To say that many cheap, mass produced tsuba were made by Japanese artisans in the Edo period when there is no evidence doesn’t make much sense. There should be lots of them hanging around, and enough duplicates that we won’t be afraid to do destructive testing on one to confirm it is cast. But that’s not the case, and it says something.

 

Lastly, many seem to take the assertion that there were Edo period cast iron kettle makers who also made tsuba as definitive proof that cast iron tsuba must have been made, but this also makes no sense. Those kettle makers could have also just made the tsuba from wrought iron, as all other Edo period tsuba makers appeared to have done. If we found a single one of their tsuba that can be proven to be cast, then it will show that they indeed did cast tsuba. But none such exist, as far as we know.

 

Now, a lot of proponents of the “Edo cast tsuba” theory keep repeating theories about how to know if a tsuba is cast or not that have been shown to be false (like the “bell ringer” theory). In science, every test has to be rigorously validated, using positive and negative controls. Clearly in this instance, there aren’t really these tests available, which limits the degree to which we can actually be certain about what we’re talking about. Also, I pointed out that there are problems with the terminology used, which appear to affect the work of even highly educated people. If this is the case, they why do we keep arguing as though some kind of certainty can actually be reached? I for one, am going to hold off from now until some kind of convincing evidence is actually presented.

[1kinko]

My admittedly cursory reading of the online literature on tetsubin production suggests it was centered in the Tohoku region and more specifically to the village of Morioka. So why is there no reference to the Morioka School of tsuba makers? The only reference I’ve found to Morioka is a Tetsugendo tsuba (Christie’s), and while it certainly is Edo period, it certainly isn’t cast iron.

[OceanoNox]

1 hour ago, Larason2 said:

Now, the absence of evidence does hold some weight. In science, as in a lot of other fields, the absence of evidence is often used as evidence that something was unlikely to have existed.

Eh, not that much. Speaking of metals, dislocations were inferred before they could be observed, and the observations confirmed the calculations. When dislocations were observed, there was a debate on their shape, and the microscope users (the dislocations are as we see them) were debating against the theoretical scientists (the dislocations are more complex than what is observed). The microscope users were wrong.

 

2 hours ago, Larason2 said:

The truth is, the only person who is really an “expert” on the matter is a person who has knowledge relating to the subject at hand, and the acquisition of this knowledge is independent of other pursuits.

I really don't understand the second part of this, sorry. Do you mean that only a tousougu artisan could be qualified to be an expert? Or anyone who has studied tousougu in a comprehensive manner? I would say that a historian could give a proper analysis of sources, especially if primary sources are to be found. Similarly, a metallurgist could give proper reasoning about what is and isn't feasible in terms of metals. I will go further and say that only the combined work of historians/archeologists and metallurgists will give definite answers (in the current matter), because their respective trainings should give them the tools to produce unbiased information and data.

 

2 hours ago, Larason2 said:

Please, when we’re discussing Ford Hallam, keep in mind that he has just come out of the hospital with a serious medical condition and is getting better at home.

I wish him a solid recovery.

 

2 hours ago, Larason2 said:

Now, a lot of proponents of the “Edo cast tsuba” theory keep repeating theories about how to know if a tsuba is cast or not that have been shown to be false (like the “bell ringer” theory).

For what it's worth: according to this paper, forged and cast "iron" (both with 3.50 mass% carbon) show a difference in acoustic attenuation (https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2538&context=icec). The other one I mentioned was a fractured tsuba that looked like zuku (pig iron), but without micrograph, it's hard to say if that was true indeed.

[ROKUJURO]

3 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

For what it's worth: according to this paper, forged and cast "iron" (both with 3.50 mass% carbon) show a difference in acoustic attenuation.....

There is no 'forged iron' with 3,5% of C. The maximum carbon content of forgeabe steel is 2,2%. Eutectic steel has 0,78% of C.  

The ringing of different metal items could only be compared in case they had exactly the same mass and shape.

[1kinko]

Oceanonox- when your Japanese  improves, please translate the articles you cited above and see if they make sense to you. They sure don’t make sense via Google Translate, and with one exception seem to make no mention of cast iron tsuba made in Japan during the Edo period or earlier.

[Dan tsuba]

1kinko (Darrel)-

 

I downloaded the website that OcenaoNox stated-

https://asahitoken.jp/contents/03_forum/report/forum-B/forum-B-104.html

 

 

"In the descriptions of the old Kogai in this column, I think I have often mentioned that it is made of solid material. In that case, the sword fittings are solid, that is, cast. The most likely products made from this casting are Kogai, Menuki, Tsuba, and various metal items attached to Koshirae.

In fact, I have seen several broken tsuba in the past, so it is certain that all works in the genre of Nanban iron tsuba in the late Edo period are cast iron. The fracture surface is so-called "zuku" iron, and it is a perfect casting. However, among those genres, there are three-dimensional double arabesque figures that are intertwined, which is an amazing technique, and it is often seen that the nunome inlay is applied to the casting tsuba, so there is some kind of technique. I have no choice but to think."

 

I hit the "English" button when the site came up (located on the upper right hand side of the website).

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

 

 

 

[1kinko]

Where did you get the idea that solid means cast? Menuki are made by uchidashi which could never be done on cast iron but all soft metal is initially cast, then forged.  Please read the references regarding nanban tsuba made in China and exported to Japan. Note also that pig iron was imported into Japan.

[Dan tsuba]

My friend Darrel,

 

Don't shoot the messenger!  

 

First off you didn't list the website where one could look up the information you presented.  You stated "it was found online".  So, why not list the website?  That would have been easy to do.  Is it in PDF?

 

Next, did you not see this reference in my last post-  I never stated "solid means cast", that was stated by the author of the referenced article.  As he also stated in that article-

 

"In fact, I have seen several broken tsuba in the past, so it is certain that all works in the genre of Nanban iron tsuba in the late Edo period are cast iron."

 

I know it is just the author's opinion, but you seem to conveniently overlook some relevant information.

 

Are you trying to "belittle" me by stating "please read the references"?  That can be a two way sword, my friend.  Like I stated, why didn't you provide an "easy" website to check out your stated references?  What was up with that?

 

Dan

[1kinko]

I think you are suffering from the belittled syndrome because your interpretations have not been universally accepted. I didn’t have the website open when I posted the site name and figured it could be easily googled with the title provided. I don’t doubt that at least some nanban tsuba were made of cast iron although I don’t know how they could have been carved from cast iron and wouldn’t want to have to fit the nakago ana to any sword. They also would have required very intricate molds that would not survive, and would add lots of labor cost not required by forged steel. He also wonders why there are so many cast sword fittings. I must travel in the wrong circles as I have never seen or handled a cast iron or cast kinko fitting. Forged steel, yes, but cast iron, no. Even non-ferrous metals form air bubbles in molds and have porosities even when water cast. That’s one reason they are forged. Steel is simply easier to work with than cast iron. Pure iron, on the other hand, works very much like copper because it is soft like copper. Apart from bending like copper, a broken iron bar with its silicon inclusions might look like broken zuku iron to someone who doesn’t actually work with metals, but that’s just a possibility.

Your translation is also different from mine, though I think we both used Google. My translation began with “In the description of the old Koi in this column…” and goes on to list “Kogi, Mekan, and Taku…” among other mysterious terms throughout. The term taku I assumed referred to tsuba but doesn’t appear in any online translations as tsuba.

[OceanoNox]

27 minutes ago, 1kinko said:

Oceanonox- when your Japanese  improves, please translate the articles you cited above and see if they make sense to you. They sure don’t make sense via Google Translate, and with one exception seem to make no mention of cast iron tsuba made in Japan during the Edo period or earlier.

Which ones? I've read the Asahi one, and I don't see what makes no sense. It talks about handling broken namban tsuba (specifically iron), then goes on showing a tsuba that may be cast (picture (B) may show traces of a spout), but again wishes for a more informed opinion. Then there is a paragraph on the dating of said tsuba. The last but one paragraph states that he heard of old tousougu made by casting, and follows with wondering why there are not more cast items, which could be explained by recycling.

 

About kakenhi, I initially put the links to show what kind of actual funded research there is (and there was not much more that I could find). The kakenhi project report by Mr. Murase states that 43% of the menuki from two different cultural centers (Nara and Kyoto) were cast. The material was not specified, but I would say something with copper. There is also this report (https://sitereports.nabunken.go.jp/en/36011), that shows molds for cast tsuba and apparently menuki (it looks like both were made of brass).

 

47 minutes ago, 1kinko said:

I don’t doubt that at least some nanban tsuba were made of cast iron although I don’t know how they could have been carved from cast iron and wouldn’t want to have to fit the nakago ana to any sword.

For what it's worth, I haven't seen shinsakuto with fitted tsuba for iai. As far as I know, the tsuba are held by pressure alone (and it is then easy to know if you have loose fittings, because they rattle).

 

 

4 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

There is no 'forged iron' with 3,5% of C. The maximum carbon content of forgeabe steel is 2,2%. Eutectic steel has 0,78% of C.  

The ringing of different metal items could only be compared in case they had exactly the same mass and shape.

Fair enough. If we continue, iron tsuba that have been analyzed have very low carbon content, lower than the steel presented in the same article, which has a very different attenuation rate than the cast iron. I agree that the denomination "forged cast iron" is dubious, and I cannot understand why, unless it's a mistake as two separate sets of cast irons were compared. In the paper, it seems all samples were the same size, so I would maintain that iron, cast iron, and steel have different acoustic properties, but I agree that it might just be impossible to evaluate by acoustics alone a tsuba, simply because of the complex shapes.

[Iekatsu]

Cast fittings in soft metal is not under question, it has a long history, large amounts of cast fittings still exist and are easy to identify and casting sites have been found. Perhaps the real question would be why was there a need to cast fittings in iron when brozne and other copper alloys were easier to work with and the resulting products just as functional.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I now feel the need to “defend myself” from “personal attacks” by members.  So, I do apologize for going “off topic”.

 

Darrel, in one of his posts directed towards me on this thread stated-

 

“I think you are suffering from the belittled syndrome because your interpretations have not been universally accepted. I didn’t have the website open when I posted the site name and figured it could be easily googled with the title provided”.

 

So, Darrel you just couldn’t “let it go”.  You continued to “belittle” me on a worldwide forum. 

 

As I stated to you in a previous post on this thread where you also tried to belittle me-

 

“Are you trying to "belittle" me by stating "please read the references"?  That can be a two-way sword, my friend.”

 

So, in my view you had already been fairly advised!

 

Also, members, if you read one of my previous posts on this thread you will understand why I have become somewhat “intolerant” of members trying to “belittle” me. 

 

Now, Darrel, I would like to inform you that there is no such term as “the belittled syndrome” it was just your lame attempt at a “put down”.

 

Although there is a term that I think applies to you.  That term is the “Narcissistic syndrome”.  You can find information about that at the below link- (also Darrel notice I posted the link and did not make it hard to find).

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

 

I include a slight overview of that syndrome below-

 

“Overview

Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition in which people have an unreasonably high sense of their own importance. They need and seek too much attention and want people to admire them. People with this disorder may lack the ability to understand or care about the feelings of others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence, they are not sure of their self-worth and are easily upset by the slightest criticism.”

 

I do apologize to members for having this slight diversion “off the topic” of this thread.  But I could not let this “personal attack” go unanswered on a worldwide forum (as in the past I have left many such “attacks” unanswered).

 

Dan

 

 

 

 

[1kinko]

No, referring you (but not just you) to the references was not intended to be belittling but instructive, and believe it or not, you are not the only person reading these posts. As I stated, that document has some issues, but it covers territory, that if correct, may have relevance to the current discussion of where and when cast iron tsuba may have come from.

[ROKUJURO]

This thread has taken an unhealthy turn in my opinion. I don't remember having read a similarly uninspiring, non-informative and (in some comments) unpleasant thread in many years!