Edo Period Cast Tsuba

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So, this is a very interesting thread!  But it is tending to restate several areas already discussed in the “Tsuba casting molds?” thread found here-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/38416-tsuba-casting-molds/

 

Now, why do I constantly refer members to that particular thread?

 

Yes, it happens to be a thread I started.  But that is not the reason I refer members to that thread.

 

The reason I refer members to that thread is because it is an eye-opening thread (my opinion, and for more than one reason as members will find out) that started in January of 2022 and went (off and on) for about a year.  Evidently a lot of members were interested in it!

 

It covers (probably) every area of the possibility of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period. 

 

Many members that contributed to that thread did excellent research (again, my opinion), and stated their references in their posts (and as in this thread Dr. Lissenden’s excellent thesis was also referred to and discussed).

 

Now, at 10 pages in length it will take quite some time to read.  But I think if a member is truly interested in the possibility of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period, they should read that particular thread.

 

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth!

 

The adventure continues,

 

With respect,

Dan

[OceanoNox]

7 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Arnaud, I was not answering your post, but Dale's, and I was not talking about possible definitions in English.

Yes, I understand that. Since your message was more readable, I answered it. So sorry, I should have replied to Carlos' directly.

My meaning was about the word tsuba in relation to sword guards, but I know about saliva and radicals.

[rematron]

12 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

 

 

The sound 'Tsuba' can and does usually mean 'spit' 'saliva' or 'drool' to most people for example

Uh-oh.  Now I feel bad for naming my cat Tsuba. 

[Dan tsuba]

We should all now be able to get our degree in “Tsubaology” or “Tsuba no Kenkyū” as described in the following thread with definitions of the term “Tsuba”!

 

Referring to this thread (a fun thread!)-

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/42135-tsubaology/

 

Just a bit more fun here!

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So now onto more "on-topic" stuff (Oh no! Not again!- Ha, ha, ha, etc!).

 

So, I researched some current threads dealing with the possibility of cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period- (other than that “Tsuba casting molds?” thread).

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/43646-an-edo-period-cast-iron-tsuba/

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44289-another-iron-wasp-tsuba-choshu-hagi-ju-tomomichi/page/2/#comments

 

Some interesting stuff here in these threads!  Many members on these threads have stated opinions (as usual), and other members have stated their conclusions based on stated referenced research.

 

Of course, it is up to the reader of these threads to make their own decisions on the opinions and or research presented.

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Cast iron tsuba on the web? 

 

In all of my previous research, I have never looked this up before in this way  But just on a whim I searched for “cast iron” tsuba on the web and found some links listed below!

 

Now, what is interesting could it be that some of these tsuba are actually made from “cast iron” as listed on the seller’s website (I believe they are all listed as Edo)?  Did the seller make a mistake?  Why would a seller list something as cast iron when he could fetch more money for an item that would be listed as “hand forged”?

 

There has got to be a mistake in the listing on some of these tsuba!

 

https://www.haigsofrochester.com/product-page/edo-iron-tsuba-signed-tomotsugu

 

https://liverpoolmilitaria.com/shop.php?code=50794

 

https://auctionet.com/en/1873676-nanban-tsuba-Japan-or-possibly-import-edo-period-cast-iron-with-remnants-of

 

https://www.zentnercollection.com/items/1328090/Japanese-Iron-Edo-Period-Tsuba

 

Anyway, just some more interesting stuff!

 

The adventure continues,

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[1kinko]

Proof that jewelers and auction houses have no knowledge of kodogu or metallurgy.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!  Oh no!  Another long post!

 

So, as was stated on a previous post to this thread-

 

“Proof that jewelers and auction houses have no knowledge of kodogu or metallurgy.”’

 

Now, in my previous post I described 4 tsuba listed as “cast iron” (or possibly cast iron).

 

Let’s look at the history of these “dealers”.  I will refer to the dealers as number 1 through 4 as it relates to the 4 tsuba websites shown in my previous post.

 

1. (tsuba described as finely cast) Since 1973, Haig’s of Rochester Fine Jewelry & Objects of Art has been a trusted name in jewelry. It is one of Rochester, Michigan’s largest family-owned jewelry stores and antique galleries. With a solid reputation for providing quality gemstones and jewelry, unique finds, dependable repair services and award-winning jewelry designs

 

2. (tsuba described as possibly cast) Welcome to Liverpool Militaria.

Dealing in a broad range of Militaria ranging from 15th Century through to WW2, we are well known for our Edged Weapons and specialise in Japanese Swords.

Using our 35 years of trading experience we strive to accurately describe and photograph all items for sale. Unless stated otherwise all items are original and authentic to the period and carry a moneyback guarantee.

 

3. (tsuba described as cast iron) About Auctionet

"We help new owners inspire new life into old items"

We are a marketplace where auction houses from all over Europe sell furniture, art, design items, collectibles and more.

The items are sold at online auction, much like eBay, but with a significant difference: all items are carefully inspected, described and photographed by experts, so you can bid with confidence. Guaranteed!

 

4. (tsuba described as cast all of iron) We offer 1 on 1 FaceTime (Video Call) appointments

Price on Request Items are priced over 10k usd

For purchase inquiries please email or phone

The Zentner Collection has become a heritage business spanning multiple generations, 40+ years and offers the largest and finest collection of Asian Art available for sale in the USA. All tucked away in our historic 36,000 sq. ft. building. We offer an incredibly broad selection of Asian Art in all categories . All pieces are either directly imported from the country of origin, purchased from estates, or consigned from select collections.

We are grateful for this opportunity to serve you, please don't hesitate to reach out.

Japanese antiques include Tansu, Samurai arms and armament, mixed metal objects, Cloisonne, Imari, Netsuke, Ikebana baskets, Mingei items, Japanese scrolls, screens, prints and framed art. Under Chinese antiques you will find Chinese hardwood furniture, Chinese scrolls, porcelain and pottery pieces dating from Song, Ming and Qing dynasty, coromandel screens, jade, snuff bottles and Neolithic period bronzes and pottery pieces. In addition we have a large selection of authentic Korean furniture, Koryo and Silla Dynasty pottery, Korean screens and art along with Southeast Asian and Himalayan religious statues and Middle Eastern rugs. All the objects shown online are viewable in person in our store.

 

So, in 3 of these dealers the minimum years they have been around is 35 years!  Evidently, they are not reluctant in using the term “cast iron” to describe some of their tsuba.  Why is that?  They evidently have their “experts” check this stuff out.  Are they using “cast iron” and “wrought iron” interchangeably?  That doesn’t make any sense to me since these professionals know that they would get more money for a hand forged wrought iron tsuba than for a cast iron tsuba.

 

They obviously have their stuff checked out by experts.  And since they have been in business for quite a while (numbers 1, 2 and 4 for at least 35 years!), I would suspect that their experts know what they are talking about.

 

Maybe the description of the metal used to make a tsuba is less concerning to an “old” established dealer than it is to “newer” dealers of tsuba.

 

I did notice that on a few of the “newer” dealers tsuba websites the “dealers” do not differentiate between “cast iron” and “hand forged”.  Maybe they are just trying to “cover all their bases” if the tsuba actually would turn out to be made from cast iron (as determined by metallurgical testing)!

 

Just some more interesting stuff to consider!

 

The “cast iron” tsuba adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[1kinko]

Yes, you are right.

[Toryu2020]

Dan - we need to looking at Japanese websites and talking to Japanese collectors - fiddling around on English websites is not gonna get you a definitive answer...

 

-t

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

So, as Toryu2020 stated-

 

“Dan - we need to looking at Japanese websites and talking to Japanese collectors - fiddling around on English websites is not gonna get you a definitive answer...”

 

Now, that has always been an interesting area for me to question!

 

Here we are discussing Japanese antiques.  Yet the majority of opinions that are presented on this forum are presented by members in Europe, England, Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, South Africa, and only a few members in Japan.

 

And from those few members in Japan, how many are actually from Japanese ancestry?

 

Are we really getting “all the information”?

 

Or are we being “fed” only partial information?

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

33 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania

Thanks Dan, I sometimes wish Tasmania was a separate country to Australia and we could keep out all the 'climate refugees' who are determined to wreck the place just like they have the mainland [and the rest of the planet for that matter] 

[OceanoNox]

13 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Dan - we need to looking at Japanese websites and talking to Japanese collectors - fiddling around on English websites is not gonna get you a definitive answer...

Why though?

According to my tea ceremony teacher, the techniques to make chagama with thin walls has been lost, and modern chagama are quite heavier than antiques. Even in Japan, some knowledge is being lost.

In another vein, there are currently a few non-Japanese representatives of koryu. The highest authority in some Japanese arts are not Japanese.

 

That being said, a quick look at google in Japanese under "鍔 鋳物", gives some websites (I haven't check their credibility). There, it is said that cast (iron) tsuba were not uncommon, but not suited to fighting, but rather made for large and cheap manufacture. They should be lighter than they appear, and make a dull noise when hit with a finger (as opposed to a clear ring for forged tsuba).

 

https://www.touken-world.jp/tips/14767/

https://asahitoken.jp/contents/06_kokogaku/kokogaku-E.html

 

PS: Nosyudo, the iaido equipment supplier, is selling "cast tsuba", although the material is not specified.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by OceanoNox
Submitted before finishing the message

[Toryu2020]

Well - the English speaking expert that we all know says these were a product of Meiji or later - I feel if there is evidence or a definitive answer it exists already in Japanese. I also think the two sides won't agree unless an authoritative voice speaks on the subject (no disrespect to the person mentioned above )

 

-t

[Matsunoki]

17 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

 

They obviously have their stuff checked out by experts.

Dan, that is a huge and dangerous assumption!!!  Why is it obvious? 

[JohnTo]

There are plenty of scientific techniques which could clarify the cast iron issue: carbon-14 dating to show when the iron was smelted, isotopic and trace metal analysis to show where the iron ore came from and crystalline analysis to show the forging history.  However no one is going to do these because these tsuba are junk and there are far more interesting research topics for scientists to put their name to and get funding for!

I opened up a discussion topic some time ago about 'Mr Suzuki's workshop'.  He was a name I attached to the owner of a workshop in Nagoya who made cast nigurome tsuba that look rather like shakudo, probably in the 18thC.  He made about 20 different designs all of which had the same common features: size, single ryo hitsu,nanako ji and gilded sort of nanako mimi plus a pattern of tagane in place of a signature (three at top plus 2, 3 and 2 at the bottom)  See attached pic of the treasure ship tsuba to refresh memories.  These tsuba are still being sold by Japanese dealers as shakudo, Mino, etc when they are not and experienced dealers should know better than to pass these off as quality pieces.

The point I am trying to make is that Japanese craftsmen have been 'forging' cheap quality tsuba in the Edo period, but nobody wants to become an expert in poor quality antiques?

 

Best regards, John  

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Well, there you have it (my opinion)! 

 

Thank you OceanoNox (Arnaud) for posting those internet sites (that originated in Japan) dealing with cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period (or maybe before that period?).  This can be ascertained in relationship to the other tsuba information included on those sites (referring to the "Imonoshi" (casters), whose main business was the production of pots, kettles, Buddhist altar fittings, and temple bells on one sight; and then referring to Namban tsuba on the other site).

 

Personally, I will take this newly presented information as a “win” in showing that cast iron tsuba were produced during the Edo period.

 

As stated in that old television show the “X-Files”; “The Truth Is Out There”! 

 

And I think OceanoNox found it!

 

The cast iron tsuba adventure (more than likely) will still continue!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Brian]

The "thud rather than a ring" has already been conclusively proven to be wrong.
And when you find an Edo period tsuba with a finish that looks like the surface of a kettle, let me know.
Cherry picking little bits and bobs off the internet is hardly proof of anything. We are just going in circles now.

[Steves87]

23 hours ago, OceanoNox said:

 

PS: Nosyudo, the iaido equipment supplier, is selling "cast tsuba", although the material is not specified.

 

I can confirm through first hand experience that the Nosyudo.jp guards do actually rust and are magnetic (at least the handful that have come my way)

[Matsunoki]

On 4/22/2023 at 11:54 PM, Dan tsuba said:

They evidently have their “experts” check this stuff out.  Are they using “cast iron” and “wrought iron” interchangeably?  That doesn’t make any sense to me since these professionals know that they would get more money for a hand forged wrought iron tsuba than for a cast iron tsuba.

 

They obviously have their stuff checked out by experts.  And since they have been in business for quite a while (numbers 1, 2 and 4 for at least 35 years!), I would suspect that their experts know what they are talking about.

Dan, I see from your reaction above that I have  confused you. Please let me explain.

All the statements I have quoted above are pure assumptions on your part. You use words like “obviously” “evidently” “I would suspect” etc with no evidence whatsoever. You then go on to use those assumptions to validate your arguments. 
The word “expert” needs to be viewed with some caution (an understatement in many cases). Also the duration for which a business has existed is no guarantee that they are experts or that they use experts. It merely suggests that they have successfully bought and sold things and have survived.

I have known dealers who have been in business for similar periods to those you cite who wouldn’t know a good thing if they dropped it on their foot! Let alone tell cast tsuba from forged iron.

I’m not “having a go” at dealers…..I was one for very many years……and I met many thoroughly professional ones over those years. I also met some who would say anything and tell you anything to secure a sale.

But be clear….I am not judging the ones you mention above and in my opinion there are many on this forum that I would deem to be true experts in their fields …..truly worthy of respect.

Please …..stick to facts, not assumptions.

[Shugyosha]

Thanks to all the contributors to this very interesting thread. A thought popped into my head and, if there is an answer, I’ll happily defer to those with metallurgical expertise: was Nanban tetsu used to make tsuba? If so and it arrived in Japan as cast billets, would the tsuba made from it retain the appearance of the original steel if not heated sufficiently to eliminate that structure? 
 

Please shoot this idea down in flames as I’ve no support for it but potentially you could have tsuba that look cast in terms of structure of the steel but have no casting sprew as the end product wasn’t cast, only the source material. 
 

I’m going to duck now and wait for the Triple A. 

[1kinko]

But, but, but Haig’s of Rochester is in the heart of Japanese culture country of the US and so knowledgeable that the 2-hitsu ana tsuba they are selling was pictured upside down like a sword guard on a western sword.

[zanilu]

6 hours ago, Brian said:

The "thud rather than a ring" has already been conclusively proven to be wrong.

Bells are are cast and ring as bells!

 

I have personally cast iron pieces at high school in my time and they ting as bells when hit. 

 

My two cents...

 

Regards 

Luca

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

.....was Nanban tetsu used to make tsuba? If so and it arrived in Japan as cast billets, would the tsuba made from it retain the appearance of the original steel if not heated sufficiently to eliminate that structure?......

John,

we don't know (or at least I don't) if the NANBAN TETSU was delivered as cast iron or as steel bars/ingots. In any case, the material was known to have been used in swords, so in case it was cast iron, it had to be transformed in the OROSHIGANE process first to make it suitable for forging. After that, blades and TSUBA could have been made from it by forging. The appearance of the metal would then not be different from older Japanese workpieces.

We have to consider that iron making in pre-industrial Europe was not much different from the TATARA process, but it was done on a larger scale. The composition of the produced European iron did not differ much from the Japanese iron, except from impurities like titanium that came with the iron ores of different origins. Actually, we don't know if these had an influence on the properties of the produced steel, at least I don't know of any serious scientific research on this field.

We should not bother too much about cast iron TSUBA in EDO JIDAI. Even if it was technically possible to make a few, there is no commercial or technical resaon and no evidence of a mass production, so it is of no real relevance to the subject of TSUBA making. Just like the SAMURAI themselves, no collector with the tiniest understanding of Japanese arts and crafts and aesthetic principles will be interested in cast iron TSUBA, may they be made at the end of EDO or in MEIJI JIDAI. The only exception I know of are NANBA TSUBA. But this is just my opinion, and while it has formed by evidence in more than 40 years of dealing with the subject, of course I could be wrong.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

Members, make no mistake.

 

My end conclusion in my most recent post to this thread of “Edo period cast tsuba” (where I stated “I will take this newly presented information as a “win” in showing that cast iron tsuba were produced during the Edo period”) was arrived at over several threads and under several different titles and it took time (about 15 months) of research, stated references, passion, dedication, knowledge, and the “quest for answers and truth” attitude of several NMB forum members.  The latest information presented on this thread by a member stating what he found on a Japanese website relating to cast iron tsuba is just “the final proof” for me (and I reiterate “for me”).

 

This research and discourse on the subject of cast iron tusba in the Edo period was something I could not and did not do alone.

 

Now, the majority of members on this forum (that I can tell) have never started a thread that may be “controversial”.  I have.  And I have done that because I have “dared” to see the possible “bigger picture.”

 

In this endeavor I have had to put up with the “belittling”, “Mr. know it all” attitudes, opinions (unsubstantiated by research), disparaging remarks, “beating a dead horse” emoji, pompous rhetoric, and other several derogatory posts directed towards me.  In my opinion, those members that did that should be ashamed of themselves (but knowing “human nature” none of the members that did that will ever see themselves in that way).

 

I am not overstating the above information.  And you don’t have to take my word for it.  You can find out for yourselves by viewing that “Tsuba casting molds?” thread.  That will make clear what I have referred to. It will show you (in my opinion) how “unpleasant” and “closeminded” some “grand masters” and others can be to members on this forum.

 

In the U.S. military we had a saying.  “Either you are part of the solution, or you are part of the problem”.  It seems that during the discussion on the various threads relating to cast iron tsuba in the Edo period (over about 15 months) several members went out of their way to be “part of the problem” (just my opinion!).  Hardly anyone stated that cast iron tsuba in the Edo period “could be possible”.  Many members said something like “no”, no way!  They stated something like it couldn’t be done because the Japanese craftsman did not have the technology to do it (or words to that effect).  As can be seen in several of the threads relating to cast iron tsuba, the Japanese craftsman did have the technology to make cast iron tsuba.

 

As far as the cast iron tsuba being produced in the Edo period question, I am done. 

 

Either the members of this forum will agree or disagree.  No amount of research will change the minds of the “non-believers” (or flat-earthers!).”

 

Yes, cast iron tsuba may not have been “mass produced” as some say (or maybe they were – who knows!).  And no collector of tsuba that spends a “s**t load” of money for an artistic hand forged tsuba may be interested in possible cast iron pieces.  But it is still an interesting subject (to me) and may be a part of the “bigger picture” of the history of tsuba making in the Edo period in Japan.

 

Hey, just my opinion!

 

So, other members can keep up the debate.  Personally, I am done with the subject (for now).

 

With respect,

Dan

[Bugyotsuji]

When I first started collecting this and that, a collecting friend handed me a box with two drawers of tsuba inside, perhaps 20 altogether. "For you," he said.

 

I have to assume that they were mostly ones of little value to him, though at the time I had even less knowledge than I have today. There were some plain iron ones of different sizes and the occasional scratched Mei, a kagami-shi example, and one really old tanto tsuba with a shinchu fukurin, as I remember. Among them was a glossy black one. "This is a cast imono tsuba, covered in urushi lacquer", he explained. It was quite heavy in the hand, so not a light metal. Did the lacquer hide the surface texture, I wondered? It did not give me any feeling of value. Was it a display piece for a shop, a billet tsuba to work until the customer chose something suitable? I have seen several lacquered wood tsuba too, so in a sense, anything tsuba-shaped would have played the part, depending on context.

 

Later I took about 50 tsuba to my sword appreciation sensei, with most of those seed tsuba included. He flipped through them, tossing them aside into a pile like baseball cards. Without even bothering to look at my disappointed face, he said, "Piers, instead of ten at ￥10,000 each, buy just one good one for ￥100,000."

 

Apologies for not joining in the debate on one side or the other. I am in the "look, listen and learn" group, and will probably die before I know everything. Great threads, these! 

[GRC]

On 4/15/2023 at 3:29 PM, Larason2 said:

That’s how science works. Until then, I think we should respect his authority on a matter in which he is an expert.

 

I also noticed that Brian made a similar appeal to Ford's "authority" in the "wasp" thread a while back.

 

It is a deeply flawed ideology and is precisely the crux of the problem in so many areas of Tosogu.

 

There are far too many instances where ideologies are stated as though they are fact, when in reality many of those concepts were outright "conjurings" that were constructed by earlier writers about Tosogu, who we have largely accepted as "authorities". 

Let's call this "Appeal to authority" or something akin to "Sensei-ism".

ie. "This must be true because "so and so" said it..."

 

This is where I would appeal to everyone to adopt a more genuine "scientific approach" on all matters that deal with Tosogu so that we can collectively break down some of the constructs that don't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

 

Larason, I have to point out that the "appeal to authority" that you are espousing is NOT how science works.

No scientist should blindly accept someone's theory until some evidence is offered up to support it. 

 

Ford has not provided a single published or researched reference that supports his views on this subject.

Plain and simple, his views on this topic are simply a hypothesis, until some evidence can be found to support his ideas.

His perceived "absence of information" does not count as a positive affirmation of his own hypothesis.

 

Furthermore,

Ford is not an expert on the topic of cast iron of any kind.

He is a goldsmith from the UK who makes decorative modern tsuba utsushi.

Absolutely, he is a skilled craftsman (I offer a sincere congrats on the awards), however this topic does not relate at all to his skill set or area of expertise. The only overlap is the word "tsuba".

Maybe if he received his training by a master Japanese kettle maker, I would give his hypothesis some more credit, but I still could not accept it as certain until evidence was provided. 

  

He is not an expert in modern cast-iron techniques, and is certainly not an authority on any of the  Japanese casting techniques that were used during the Edo period (of which there are very few extant writings from the period).

He is not a trained or published historian.

He is not a trained or published anthropologist.

And just because he lived in Japan for a few years, it does not make him an expert in Japanese culture (modern or otherwise).

 

So where is his authority on THIS TOPIC? 

There is no factual evidence to support his view.

He is simply offering an opinion, and because of perceived "authority", some people are just blindly accepting it as some sort of "truth".

 

And posting his opinion under the title of "the last word" on the topic is completely asinine.

If someone were to walk into a science conference to make a claim like that, with no supporting evidence, would be laughed out of the room.

 

The problem that I see, is that the idea is being delivered as an absolute, and there is simply no justification for that.

If the hypothesis was being presented as "I think that... or I suspect that..." then it offers up an opportunity for research and discussion.

That's what we need more of, not more "sensei-ism".

 

Most of the quotes that have been dug up by many members on the NMB, came from actual tsuba scholars and/or Japanese publications, that suggest that cast iron tsuba could have been produced during the Edo period. This is coupled with the fact that there was a growing trend toward "mass production" of tsuba and "ready made" tsuba during the mid to late Edo period.

 

Sesko's reference to cast-iron kettle makers who made tsuba around the 1750s, was translated from Japanese historical records. I can't think of what the Japanese would gain by making up such a statement in their records, so in my view, that stands as legitimate evidence, not merely an opinion.

 

Everyone is free to choose their beliefs of course, but we shouldn't let this degenerate into "picking sides", or resorting to "appeal to authority" without supporting evidence.  

[Larason2]

GRC, if you disagree with Ford or I, that's one thing, but calling either of us asinine isn't appropriate. I don't really do discussions with people who start insulting when they get frustrated.

[Jean]

Glen, 

 

Instead of using unpleasant words, I’d rather use the sentence « this opinion is neither complete nor conclusive » which shows your disagreement and start from this to develop the cons.

 

NMB strongly frowns at people giving other members « birds’ names ».

 

[GRC]

Sorry about that, I didn't mean to be overly disparaging by using the term asinine. In its pure definition, it takes on a fairly "extreme" connotation, so it could easily come across harsher than I intended, so definitely the wrong choice of word. 

 

1 hour ago, Jean said:

« this opinion is neither complete nor conclusive »

 

I agree, that would be a perfectly apt description of his view on the topic.