Historical cost of armor

[Arthur G]

Have some things planned in regards to ballistics testing different designs against different calibers in the future, absolutely!

One of the top ones on the list is testing the theory that the koboshi kabuto was developed in response to firearms.

I'm also going to be working on a 2mm thick Laminated steel okitenugui down the road. I'm not sure if anyone has actually forged out these types of plates in quite some time. I found the method for doing it in an old book, so hopefully I can pull it off!

[Bugyotsuji]

As we know, the Japanese language has different counters for objects, as in English we say 'a pair of pants', or 'a school of dolphin' or 'a brace of pigeon'.  Well, a set of armour (there you go, 'a set'!) can be expressed as 一領 ichi-ryo,　一点 it-ten, 一着 it-chaku, or 一具 ichi-gu.

 

Interestingly, 一領 Ichi ryo is also the counter for a plot of land, and by extension the house on it. Thus a friend (ex NBTKHK board member) went to great pains to explain to me that buying a set of armo(u)r, was when simply put, equivalent to buying a house then, and likewise today.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

20 hours ago, Arthur G said:

Have some things planned in regards to ballistics testing different designs against different calibers in the future, absolutely!

One of the top ones on the list is testing the theory that the koboshi kabuto was developed in response to firearms.

I'm also going to be working on a 2mm thick Laminated steel okitenugui down the road. I'm not sure if anyone has actually forged out these types of plates in quite some time. I found the method for doing it in an old book, so hopefully I can pull it off!

That's really cool ! You'd need to really trust what you're making to risk these but there's a huge potential.

It's my first time hearing about that theory, where does it come from ? 

 

As for the laminated steel, will you be doing steel-faced iron with 1/3rd steel and 2/3rd iron ? (Or perhaps I'm just confusing the term with something else) I'm eager to see you work on this, and there's only one way for you to know if you can pull it off; I really like your work and dedication !

[Arthur G]

Well, I won't be testing them while wearing them  I would like to use a ballistic gel head, and maybe something that can measure the force imparted to the wearer. It's not enough to stop a bullet from penetrating; you also need to dissipate the energy being transferred to the person under the armor. For that reason it's not enough to make a test plate or a bowl; I'll have to make something with a complete shikoro. 

As far as that theory goes, I'd never heard of it until joining the JAS. I found it quite interesting, but I have some doubts. 

Personally, I don't think it was to stop solid shot, but rather to mitigate the damage from "sennin-goroshi" (basically shotgun pellets). 

And that's correct with the laminated steel! However there is no iron used. The inner layer is a low carbon mild steel.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

40 minutes ago, Arthur G said:

Well, I won't be testing them while wearing them  I would like to use a ballistic gel head, and maybe something that can measure the force imparted to the wearer. It's not enough to stop a bullet from penetrating; you also need to dissipate the energy being transferred to the person under the armor. For that reason it's not enough to make a test plate or a bowl; I'll have to make something with a complete shikoro. 

As far as that theory goes, I'd never heard of it until joining the JAS. I found it quite interesting, but I have some doubts. 

Personally, I don't think it was to stop solid shot, but rather to mitigate the damage from "sennin-goroshi" (basically shotgun pellets). 

And that's correct with the laminated steel! However there is no iron used. The inner layer is a low carbon mild steel.

Hehe that reminds me of the man that tests his bulletproof vests on himself each year, I think you'd need to be crazy to test these kind of things on yourself ! 

And I agree about test plates, for realistic results, a realistic surface is needed, a small plate might get shredded while a dou made of the same material might endure it.

 

As for the koboshi kabuto, it'd be interesting to find antique ones damaged by bullets, I can see those managing to defend against pellets, as the increased surface provided by the koboshi could dissipate the energy well enough but I feel like smooth momonari, namban (and wasei namban) kabuto would still be more useful against firearms.

 

I can't wait to see how you'll do!

[Miura]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:01 AM, Gakusee said:

So, on that particular kabuto: another not fully professional but dedicated Katchushi enthusiast (and NKBKHK board member) in Japan, the late Ostuka san, also made a rather impressive replica. He apparently made a lot of armours and kabuto, even though professionally he was a company manager. I presume he will fall in Andrew’s “craftsman” category. But I was impressed by his various creations which were donated to the NKBKHK. 
Please see attached courtesy of the NKBKHK and their monthly magazine. 

Which mr Otsuka san are you talking about? That helmet isnt bad but a little out of proportion from anything i have seen and there are many variations. I guess its its own variation. If it was a hobby, hes a lay craftsman. Plain and simple. Not saying the work is bad or good. 

[Miura]

15 hours ago, FrenchBreadPrime said:

Hehe that reminds me of the man that tests his bulletproof vests on himself each year, I think you'd need to be crazy to test these kind of things on yourself ! 

And I agree about test plates, for realistic results, a realistic surface is needed, a small plate might get shredded while a dou made of the same material might endure it.

 

As for the koboshi kabuto, it'd be interesting to find antique ones damaged by bullets, I can see those managing to defend against pellets, as the increased surface provided by the koboshi could dissipate the energy well enough but I feel like smooth momonari, namban (and wasei namban) kabuto would still be more useful against firearms.

 

I may have a koboshi with battle damage..... ill check. 

Most of what i have seen damaged in battle were damaged by arrows. Some times i have seen armor damaged by bullets that i think were not from testing but unless its a clean hole its hard to tell with all the testing that took place.  

[Arthur G]

I'd be very eager to see it! 

If I do go for it and go through the misery of hand filing 2000 rivets, I think I know which one I'd want to do for this.

Without any doubt, it'd be a Bamen.

Been going down a rabbit hole with them today and I'm utterly fascinated. Not to mention I'm seeing some very very possible Saika influence in them.

[Bugyotsuji]

2 hours ago, Arthur G said:

If I do go for it and go through the misery of hand filing 2000 rivets, I think I know which one I'd want to do for this.

Without any doubt, it'd be a Bamen.

Been going down a rabbit hole with them today and I'm utterly fascinated. Not to mention I'm seeing some very very possible Saika influence in them.

Anthony is our Bamen man, if you have not come across him Arthur.

 

As to 2,000 rivets, imagine if you had a workshop with 20 slaves apprentices drilling and filing away for you.

[IBot]

I once had a chat with Nishioka San about making the hollow rivets (kara boshi) for a replica of a Heian style helmet bowl. He tried using a shaped punch on a block of lead to form the iron, but the metal split each time. Eventually he had no alternative but to hammer the metal over a shaped former, trim the lower edge and then add the rivet stem by drilling a hole in the apex, filing it square and riveting the stem into that. Even that amount of work pales into insignificance compared to a ko-boshi kabuto with some 2000 odd rivets, each column of which has the rivets decreasing in size towards the apex. 

Ian Bottomley

[IBot]

On another point, I have a copy of a diary kept by Myochin Muneyasu that mentions a pupil who made one of my armours. The armour is inscribed to the effect that it was made in 1847 for a samurai of the Chohan (Nagato) called Nakagawa Mochinori by a Ki Yasukyo and is of russet metal in a modern style - probably commissioned in response to the panic over a potential invasion by the Americans. According to the diary, Yasukiyo, whose real name was Araji Katsuzo, had stayed in Edo with Muneyasu only three years before returning to Nagato and making the armour at the age of 19. Three years seems insufficient time to learn to be an armourer from scratch, so it is probable  that Yasukyo was already an armourer at the age of 16 and had been sent to Edo to learn the latest styles and techniques. The same diary also mentions that Muneyasu had a total of 18 pupils drawn from all over Japan over a ten year period, the youngest being 13, the oldest 46. It also includes some of the work being done around this time. In 1865 he carried out some unspecified work on a helmet by Myochin Nobuie and charged 19 gold ryu for it. In 1859 he made an armour in the modern style for a member of the Yamamoto family and charged just under 30 ryu. Another armours in a modern style were considerably more, in one case 120 ryu. Clearly these were available in different qualities, some perhaps incorporating re-used components. Being an era of nostalgia for the glories of the samurai's past,  Muneyasu was quite prepared to meet the demand for copies of old armours. In 1858 he made a do-maru that he charged 212 ryu for, whilst in 1863 the Lord of Mikawa was charged 300ryu for a copy of an o-yoroi.

Perhaps someone could approximate these prices into modern values.

Ian Bottomley

[Arthur G]

I think Chris would be the man for the job on that one!

[Miura]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:33 PM, Gakusee said:

 

• Luc, it was not only kabuto but whole armours and also it looks like whole koshirae, accessories, etc. 

 

• Chris, looking at what Otsuka san has made, if I were to extrapolate, I think if he probably put his mind to it he would have been able to make the rivets. Why he did not, I am not sure, but the skill and ability of that gentleman seems to have been very high. He also studied with professional katchushi. 
   

Below are excerpts from the magazine with his creations which the family donated for study purposes to the NKBKHK. 

Otsuka san did not make all those pieces.

[chris covington]

So the value of the ryo is tricky. The numbers given range from as low as ¥3,000 at the end of the Edo all the way up to ¥400,000 at the start of the Edo in today’s yen, but I can’t find context or how those numbers are calculated. The context I can find though it that historically one ryo was equal to four koku of rice in the Tensho era 1573-1592. This is a good working number for me because commodity prices I feel are historically more stable over long average periods of time (even though in the short term they fluctuate wildly). So we know from my first post a koku of rice is about $500US today (the currency I’d prefer to work with since I’m from the US). So each ryo is about $2,000. That would put a domaru around $424,000, and an O-yoroi at $600,000. If we assume the lowest number in late Edo (which I’m a little suspect of, but it might have to do with weight and gold purity of the coins making it tricky to nail down) we are looking at $25 a ryo so an O-yoroi would cost $7,500. If anyone will make a traditional O-yoroi for me for $7,500 please let me know!!! I’ll be happy to pay that! 

 

Chris

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, Miura said:

Otsuka san did not make all those pieces.

Well, the NKBKHK article written by Nishioka san is very clear that all these were made by Otsuka san. That would make him a katchushi in my mind, as some of these seem quite sophisticated, but I am no expert to determine that, Andrew. 
 

The same magazine, after the article dedicated to Otsuka san, has a tribute to Miura san by way of a trilateral reminiscence by Ueda san, Yamasa and Jo Anseeuw in discourse format. 

[Gakusee]

The value of ryo fluctuated widely due to the debasement of the koban and diminished gold content (over a century, century and a half, it halved from the original 18.5g). 
So while 1 koku used to be worth 1 ryo = 1 koban, by the end of the 18 century, 1 koku was already worth over 5 ryo.
 

So, calculations as the above are meaningless unless we know precisely when certain prices are quoted and then comparing these prices to the in-kind value of rice koku and also physical gold content (from the respective gold coinage at the time). 
So people are not comparing like with like in the commentary above. 

[chris covington]

17 minutes ago, Gakusee said:

The value of ryo fluctuated widely due to the debasement of the koban and diminished gold content (over a century, century and a half, it halved from the original 18.5g). 
So while 1 koku used to be worth 1 ryo = 1 koban, by the end of the 18 century, 1 koku was already worth over 5 ryo.
 

So, calculations as the above are meaningless unless we know precisely when certain prices are quoted and then comparing these prices to the in-kind value of rice koku and also physical gold content (from the respective gold coinage at the time). 
So people are not comparing like with like in the commentary above. 

Sorry if I wasn’t clear. That’s why I indicated it is tricky. As you can see from the numbers I found the range is between $7,500 and $600,000.  Now the prices listed are from the 1850s-1860s 212 ryo, 300 ryo, etc). This is the tail end of the Edo era. The information about modern value of ryo comes from an unnamed Japanese school textbook. The book states a ryo at the start of the Edo was about ¥100,000 yen and it fell to about ¥3,000 by the end of the Edo. That gives us an approximate timeline, but that also gives us a price of $7,500 for a full O-yoroi, hence my comment about someone making one for me for that price. I find that highly suspect. 

 

The Currency Museum of Japan states “nominal value equivalent 300,000–400,000 yen, but was worth only 120,000–130,000 yen in practice, or 40,000 yen in terms of rice.”

That is another huge gap. This is why I suggested the four to one ratio of koku to ryo, a historically pretty standard ratio that lets us get an approximate modern value. That would give us the price of $2,000 per ryo. Given that the late Miura sensei sold his O-yoroi for $500,000 before he passed, it seems like it isn’t far off. 

 

Currency debasement is always problematic though. I collect coins issued by the Knights of St. John while they controlled Rhodes and Malta. The need to debase currency brought havoc on the Maltese economy and makes figuring out values in modern times very challenging. We should at least try though. 

 

Just my thought.

 

Chris

[Gakusee]

14 minutes ago, chris covington said:

We should at least try though. 

 

Just my thought.

 

Chris

Agree. We just need to be very clear about the point in time we refer to and what monetary values were pertinent then. We cannot generalise over an extended period of time (end-Muromachi to end-Edo).

 

Thank you for the interesting topic. 
 

I also recommend that people read this: https://nihonto.com/samurai-income/

[Bugyotsuji]

Yesterday I was privileged to hold and photograph a wonderful set of solid gold menuki by Yokoya Sōmin, 1670-1733. Botan 牡丹 peonies. (His name is included in the late 1700s Sōken Kisho with two pages of explanation.) 
 

If we believe the story, which is fairly detailed, we get a date of around 1710~20 ish, and a down-payment by the wealthy merchant Kinokuniya Bunzaemon of 10 Ryō for them.

 

After three years he grew impatient and demanded his money back. Sōmin completed them shortly thereafter and sold them to a rival merchant for 50 Ryō, vowing never to make a pair of single peony menuki again.

 

 

[Miura]

I guess this is somewhat related. A while back, somebody forwarded me a post that was done by somebody on facebook stating in the old days "iron was worth as much as gold".  Then a member improperly addressed it by saying:  "That doesnt make any sense, otherwise they would have made coins out of iron."  The first guy quickly deleted his post. Both were wrong:

 

Blind leading the blind.

I believe it was the fake Fake armor society in England facebook page.

[Miura]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:16 AM, Gakusee said:

Well, the NKBKHK article written by Nishioka san is very clear that all these were made by Otsuka san. That would make him a katchushi in my mind, as some of these seem quite sophisticated, but I am no expert to determine that, Andrew. 
 

The same magazine, after the article dedicated to Otsuka san, has a tribute to Miura san by way of a trilateral reminiscence by Ueda san, Yamasa and Jo Anseeuw in discourse format. 

the submission didnt really have a place in this thread. But ill address this since you brought it up. 

 

Depends on what you mean by made.

 

Ueda San knew him rather well. the other two, im not sure who yamasa is but Jo didnt know him except very liminally.  I think its kind that they did such a tribute. But somewhat odd that they didn't care to include me.

 

Lets stick to historical costs.

 

 

[chris covington]

19 minutes ago, Miura said:

I guess this is somewhat related. A while back, somebody forwarded me a post that was done by somebody on facebook stating in the old days "iron was worth as much as gold".  Then a member improperly addressed it by saying:  "That doesnt make any sense, otherwise they would have made coins out of iron."  The first guy quickly deleted his post. Both were wrong:

 

Blind leading the blind.

I believe it was the fake Fake armor society in England facebook page.

I have heard at one point brass was more highly valued than gold because Japan has very little zinc, so it was difficult to make. When we see items like Heianjo and Onin tsuba (two of my favorite types) these weren't just cheap decoration added to plates after the fact, but pretty flashy shows of wealth... until such time as brass became more common and prices fell. 

[Miura]

42 minutes ago, chris covington said:

I have heard at one point brass was more highly valued than gold because Japan has very little zinc, so it was difficult to make. When we see items like Heianjo and Onin tsuba (two of my favorite types) these weren't just cheap decoration added to plates after the fact, but pretty flashy shows of wealth... until such time as brass became more common and prices fell. 

Hi Chris,

I have heard the same thing, and I think at a very early point that held true.  From what I understood, the Japanese didn't know how to make it.  This is one of the oldest Inlay I have had. I always thought it was telling because it looks like they intentionally cut out parts of the inlay, I thought to use to pay somebody in the stead of money/coin.

From the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai Library

[Miura]

[Miura]

Food for thought. From the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai Library.

[Miura]

There are a lot of kanteisho floating around that give some perspective on the evaluation of armor in the Edo period.

From the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai Library

 

12 plate helmet by Yoshimichi 義通 (sometimes referred to as "Gitsu" in the modern era to differentiate from Yoshimichi　義道 "Gido") valued at 15 gold coins. 3rd year of Shotoku (1713)

[Shugyosha]

44 minutes ago, Miura said:

Food for thought. From the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai Library.

Hi Miura, 

 

I’m reading this thread with interest but I’m missing the point that you’re making with regard to this tsuba and wondered if you could please elaborate? Thanks in advance. 

[Miura]

24 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Hi Miura, 

 

I’m reading this thread with interest but I’m missing the point that you’re making with regard to this tsuba and wondered if you could please elaborate? Thanks in advance. 

Hi John, Thanks for following. I just thought that this tsuba had designs of money or actual money inlaid as a design to the surface of the art object since we were discussing valuations of how much things sold for, and Chris had mentioned brass.  I would assume that this tsuba sold for at least as much the face value of the money on the surface.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Miura,

Thank you! Sorry for being slow.

[Miura]

On 4/22/2023 at 7:23 PM, IBot said:

I once had a chat with Nishioka San about making the hollow rivets (kara boshi) for a replica of a Heian style helmet bowl. He tried using a shaped punch on a block of lead to form the iron, but the metal split each time. Eventually he had no alternative but to hammer the metal over a shaped former, trim the lower edge and then add the rivet stem by drilling a hole in the apex, filing it square and riveting the stem into that. Even that amount of work pales into insignificance compared to a ko-boshi kabuto with some 2000 odd rivets, each column of which has the rivets decreasing in size towards the apex. 

Ian Bottomley

Just from experience I can see at least two things wrong with how the awa boshi were made according to what you said.... .which is probably why he wasnt being successful.  there are several different ways of making rivets, with different radiations of designs on general and local levels during different periods.  Im pretty sure that the skill level of the maker of Awa boshi was higher than the skill level of koboshi maker. Id expect that the katchu shi himself would have made the total kabuto in the Heian-Kamakura period, where the rivets for koboshi were (in many cases) done by the deshi (apprentices) toiling away specializing in one size.  The plates koboshi kabuto would have been done by the armorer himself in my opinion, with top level understudies imitating the work and perhaps doing easier kata in the beginning. Bamen can have very complex angles, and so can Soshu Koboshi, and so on.  Just the hachi itself requires great skill of a senior artisan. That's my strong opinion about what was going on in those workshops.