Historical cost of armor

[Miura]

On 4/24/2023 at 10:16 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Yesterday I was privileged to hold and photograph a wonderful set of solid gold menuki by Yokoya Sōmin, 1670-1733. Botan 牡丹 peonies. (His name is included in the late 1700s Sōken Kisho with two pages of explanation.) 
 

If we believe the story, which is fairly detailed, we get a date of around 1710~20 ish, and a down-payment by the wealthy merchant Kinokuniya Bunzaemon of 10 Ryō for them.

 

After three years he grew impatient and demanded his money back. Sōmin completed them shortly thereafter and sold them to a rival merchant for 50 Ryō, vowing never to make a pair of single peony menuki again.

 

 

I love this story and it makes my point about artisans getting ripped off by the collector/dealers.  The attitude of Kinokuniya is alive and well in the Japanese art world and so is the feeling expressed by Yokoya Sōmin.

[IBot]

I am grateful for the person using the nom-de-plume 'Miura' who has pointed out the ridiculous errors I made in my former post. I now realise I must have fantasied about having visited  Nishioka San and that his wife cooked us a delicious meal of nasu. I remember in my dream that he showed me how he made the rivets for the helmet of a replica o-yoroi that was to be displayed alongside an original to demonstrate how it appeared when new. What is even more amazing is that I am holding an example of such a rivet as I type that for years I foolishly believed he had given me as a souvenir of my visit. 

Ian Bottomley

[chris covington]

50 minutes ago, IBot said:

I am grateful for the person using the nom-de-plume 'Miura' who has pointed out the ridiculous errors I made in my former post. I now realise I must have fantasied about having visited  Nishioka San and that his wife cooked us a delicious meal of nasu. I remember in my dream that he showed me how he made the rivets for the helmet of a replica o-yoroi that was to be displayed alongside an original to demonstrate how it appeared when new. What is even more amazing is that I am holding an example of such a rivet as I type that for years I foolishly believed he had given me as a souvenir of my visit. 

Ian Bottomley

Mr. Bottomley,

 

I'm a bit perplexed, where did Mr. Miura question your memory to suggest you were fantasizing about the conversation? The only post he made regarding the rivets just mention, from his experience why Mr. Nishioka might have had trouble making them, based on your detailed post. It never questions you or your memory, but suggests there was something wrong with his process. Mr. Mirua then goes into how he thought the old workshops ran. Was there a post that was deleted? This is all I see:

 

"Just from experience I can see at least two things wrong with how the awa boshi were made according to what you said.... .which is probably why he wasnt being successful.  there are several different ways of making rivets, with different radiations of designs on general and local levels during different periods.  Im pretty sure that the skill level of the maker of Awa boshi was higher than the skill level of koboshi maker. Id expect that the katchu shi himself would have made the total kabuto in the Heian-Kamakura period, where the rivets for koboshi were (in many cases) done by the deshi (apprentices) toiling away specializing in one size.  The plates koboshi kabuto would have been done by the armorer himself in my opinion, with top level understudies imitating the work and perhaps doing easier kata in the beginning. Bamen can have very complex angles, and so can Soshu Koboshi, and so on.  Just the hachi itself requires great skill of a senior artisan. That's my strong opinion about what was going on in those workshops."

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Miura]

14 hours ago, IBot said:

I am grateful for the person using the nom-de-plume 'Miura' who has pointed out the ridiculous errors I made in my former post. I now realise I must have fantasied about having visited  Nishioka San and that his wife cooked us a delicious meal of nasu. I remember in my dream that he showed me how he made the rivets for the helmet of a replica o-yoroi that was to be displayed alongside an original to demonstrate how it appeared when new. What is even more amazing is that I am holding an example of such a rivet as I type that for years I foolishly believed he had given me as a souvenir of my visit. 

Ian Bottomley

Ian.  You have my utmost respect. And for that I also have respect for Mr. Nishioka.  I am not criticizing you at all. I know black and white can be perplexing as to tone and context.  Im sure your memory is exactly as you stated. My point was that the methods and results that Mr. Nishioka reported were odd or incorrect.  I have made awa boshi in the way described and it did not have the results that Nishioka reported.  I think at that time he was leaving out a few important steps in the process which is why he was not successful. Since that time I bet he has finally correct those mistakes.  There are many processes used in the production of rivets during the Heian-Muromachi periods.   Please forgive the misunderstanding. Generally I try to make commentary without roping myself into educating the general public on each and every process of armor manufacture so I tend to leave out details. 

Regarding my "nom-de-plume".  Thank you, I have earned it and I was given it.  It is quite hard working as a foreign artisan in Japan with all the politics and badmouthing. I can't understand anybody being jealous of what I have accomplished though. Most people would not last two weeks in the environment that I endured.  The registered name of my company is Miura Anjin Kobo limited. I shant be changing it anytime soon.  cheers.

[IBot]

Chris, My apologies for my sarcastic post. It is now many years since I last visited Japan and I now would not want to endure the long tedious hours the flight entails. Fortunately, I still retain my mental faculties and my memories of meeting so many wonderful people there. It was on one of my visits that I had the pleasure of meeting members of the Armour Society at a dinner organised by my dear old friend Dr. Galeno. After dinner I spent hours discussing armour and sharing images of them with a couple of Society members in my hotel room. It was from that meeting that I was later introduced to Nishioka at his home where he showed me some of the restoration work he had done. He also showed me images of o-yoroi he had made and emphasised how he insisted on using had-hammered plates from which he made the iron elements whilst his wife wove the braid by hand. Perhaps what impressed me most was his rejection of a Heian style helmet bowl that sat on top of his TV because it was several mm too tall and the fact that he would not use machine-made braid because it had the wrong number of threads in it. A true perfectionist. He also showed me a copy of the miniature o-yoroi ,that if I remember correctly is in the Imperial collection, that he had made as a present for his wife. I recall how he described the difficulty of cutting the stencil for making the tsuru bashira leather. It was on a later visit to his new house that we had the discussion about the Heian style helmet bowl that had been on his TV and how he made the kara boshi. 

I think that now is the time to close this topic down as little more can be said.

Ian Bottomley

[chris covington]

2 hours ago, IBot said:

Chris, My apologies for my sarcastic post. It is now many years since I last visited Japan and I now would not want to endure the long tedious hours the flight entails. Fortunately, I still retain my mental faculties and my memories of meeting so many wonderful people there. It was on one of my visits that I had the pleasure of meeting members of the Armour Society at a dinner organised by my dear old friend Dr. Galeno. After dinner I spent hours discussing armour and sharing images of them with a couple of Society members in my hotel room. It was from that meeting that I was later introduced to Nishioka at his home where he showed me some of the restoration work he had done. He also showed me images of o-yoroi he had made and emphasised how he insisted on using had-hammered plates from which he made the iron elements whilst his wife wove the braid by hand. Perhaps what impressed me most was his rejection of a Heian style helmet bowl that sat on top of his TV because it was several mm too tall and the fact that he would not use machine-made braid because it had the wrong number of threads in it. A true perfectionist. He also showed me a copy of the miniature o-yoroi ,that if I remember correctly is in the Imperial collection, that he had made as a present for his wife. I recall how he described the difficulty of cutting the stencil for making the tsuru bashira leather. It was on a later visit to his new house that we had the discussion about the Heian style helmet bowl that had been on his TV and how he made the kara boshi. 

I think that now is the time to close this topic down as little more can be said.

Ian Bottomley

Mr. Bottomley,

 

I think your memory is probably much better than mine. I haven't been to Japan in a while, but my memory of my various trips has been fading. I need to go again, but you are right, that flight is pretty terrible.

 

I agree with Mr. Nishioka that the kuteuchi is the better way to go (although outside of most people's ability to produce). Arthur, in making the okitenugui for me, insisted on doing kuteuchi for the tiny bits of orange braid, because it was the proper and historical way to do it. The tiny bit of odoshi is vestigial and could have been filled with a few cut-offs of modern odoshi, and it wouldn't have mattered. I thought at first that he is just a madman, but as I've studied the topic more, he is 100% right, if you plan on doing something you do it right, no shortcuts. Lace made on looms, or even worse modern shoelace making machines, lacks the same qualities. Kuteuchi odoshi doesn't unravel and fray if part of it gets cut, it'll maintain structure. The value of this feature can't be overstated when your life is on the line and your steel staying in place is what saves it.

 

Best regards,

Chris 

[Bugyotsuji]

Maybe some of you old fogies should book a berth on a cruise ship to Japan... 

 

My first trip to Japan was by ship.

[Miura]

17 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Maybe some of you old fogies should book a berth on a cruise ship to Japan... 

 

My first trip to Japan was by ship.

If they still had liners, I would prefer ship.  Better yet air-ship.  I hate airplanes as fast as they are I get off with a broken back.  Im 190cm and just living in Japan has stunted my growth, the reducing plane sizes are a slap in the face. 

[Miura]

17 hours ago, chris covington said:

Mr. Bottomley,

 

I think your memory is probably much better than mine. I haven't been to Japan in a while, but my memory of my various trips has been fading. I need to go again, but you are right, that flight is pretty terrible.

 

I agree with Mr. Nishioka that the kuteuchi is the better way to go (although outside of most people's ability to produce). Arthur, in making the okitenugui for me, insisted on doing kuteuchi for the tiny bits of orange braid, because it was the proper and historical way to do it. The tiny bit of odoshi is vestigial and could have been filled with a few cut-offs of modern odoshi, and it wouldn't have mattered. I thought at first that he is just a madman, but as I've studied the topic more, he is 100% right, if you plan on doing something you do it right, no shortcuts. Lace made on looms, or even worse modern shoelace making machines, lacks the same qualities. Kuteuchi odoshi doesn't unravel and fray if part of it gets cut, it'll maintain structure. The value of this feature can't be overstated when your life is on the line and your steel staying in place is what saves it.

 

Best regards,

Chris 

Ian and Chris,

I agree on the hand braid. It does tend to last much longer as well, and you can tell by the size of the holes in the armor sometimes what it was made for, as the hand made braid is so tight that it requires larger holes.  The problem is the cost, I hired probably the most famous braider in Japan to do a very special mimi - ito for me.  They were supposed to do 6 meters for 40,000 yen. which I agreed to gladly.  I get a call that my work order is done a few months later and I went in and they had two meters done, and they said it was 60,000 yen. The artist simply had lost interest in the work and quit (or died) I was talking to the company owner.  Anyway we had to negotiate and I agreed to pay 20,000 yen for the two meters.  10,000 yen/meter (at that time about $100/meter)  which I think is a good price in today's money.   A full kebiki laced armor takes about 350 meters of lacing.  Do the math.  An o-yoroi takes less, and the weave is not as difficult but the amount of silk is comparable and if you do it using actual, true (akane or murasaki) dyes, dyed over and over and over,  the natural resources are enormous to to perfectly.  The reason that we, (armor makers) do not use hand done lacing for the majority of our work is budgetary.  Armor makers are not braiders.  In defense of the traditionally made looms.  The lacing is very good, and there are adjustments that the weavers can make to the machines which provide very different product.  You just have to know how to tell them what you want.  I usually take a sample and tell them exactly what I want and they let me know how close you can get.  As I explained in a previous post, the Japanese lacing has curvature which is important for the lacing to do its job properly and look good.   Armor artisans will gladly do whatever you want, so will braid craftspeople, just understand the costs have to be passed on to the customer, and in Japan its standard for artisans to add a markup on material, though I myself do not.   A cheaper alternative would be leather, Asa, or men fabrics. Which are also very time accurate for battle armors.  Most of the battle armors from Kamakura/Heian period in Oyamazumi Jinja are leather or asa (hemp) laced. That is the best, unmolested collection of early battle armor in Japan.

(from the Armor maker's perspective)

Best,

Andy (Miura)  

 

[Arthur G]

I had been wondering about asa odoshi! I had heard rumors of it, but when I asked around I couldn't seem to find much.

That's something I'd be very interested in reproducing...

[Alex A]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:47 PM, chris covington said:

I have heard at one point brass was more highly valued than gold because Japan has very little zinc, so it was difficult to make. When we see items like Heianjo and Onin tsuba (two of my favorite types) these weren't just cheap decoration added to plates after the fact, but pretty flashy shows of wealth... until such time as brass became more common and prices fell. 

 

Interesting to read.

 

Makes me think of earlyish Ko Kinko type tsuba made from solid Shinchu, then lacquered that we sometimes come across

 

A Samurai with such a tsuba would be walking around feeling like a Mr T of that era.

 

[IBot]

Most armours made to equip ashigaru and other low-ranking soldiers were laced in hemp (asa) for the simple reason that it is virtually indestructible and lasts without degrading, whereas silk has a finite life. Judging by the cost of buying a hemp  kimono, as opposed to one in silk in the flea-markets, I suspect hemp lacing was more initially more expensive, but worked out cheaper in the long run because of its extended life.

Ian Bottomley