Historical cost of armor

[chris covington]

How much did a samurai pay for his armor? by Christopher R. Covington

 

How much did a samurai have to spend (or did his boss have to spend) to get a suit of armor? 

 

Japan is a resource poor country, compared to many other places. There is little arable land and because the islands are geographically young, you don’t find large deposits of ore like iron. Japan creates wealth through value added instead. They are perhaps the masters of adding value as their disproportionate place on the world economy shows, compared to many resource-rich countries. Translating the price of goods and services into modern currency (the USD for my sake) is a little tricky but I think we can get a fair idea of what a suit of armor would cost. I will be looking at the very end of the Muromachi era. This was a period of near collapse of the Ashikaga military government and right in the middle of a 150 year civil war. This era is interesting to me because the founders of the martial arts I study lived during this time, as well as the Catholic Samurai-Saint Blessed Justus Takayama Ukon. It is also helpful because there is some record of prices from this period. 

 

The first thing we have to do is a little conversion between two units of value. Japan was an agrarian society and one of the most important units of measurement, and the standard of trade, was the koku of rice. One koku of rice could feed a full grown man for a year. It is about 180 liters. Taxes were collected in rice. Feudal domains and the wealth of the lords who owned them were measured in koku of rice, because rice was life. In today’s USD one koku of rice is approximately $500. A number of factors can change that, but it is a good starting point.

 

Carrying rice in sacks with you everywhere wasn’t possible for daily transactions. The Japanese had various coins made from gold, silver, and copper that circulated for commerce. The coinage was based on Chinese coins and many were imported for domestic use. 1,000 copper coins were worth approximately 2/3rd of an ounce of gold.  At today’s price that is about $1,075 worth of gold. This unit would be called kanmon. You could buy two koku of rice for a kanmon. 

This gives us a fairly stable price even across centuries. Today’s gold price and today’s rice price match the medieval Japanese prices near perfectly. Two koku of rice is $1,000 and 2/3rd of an ounce of gold is about the same. So this helps us get a good idea of armor costs relative to commodities that are still valued and traded! We must keep in mind that many people living in Japan at this time were peasants. They were subject to war, famine, and poverty at a much higher rate. Prices were far less stable as well. Many families lived off of only a dozen koku of rice per year, or less, effectively abject poverty by today’s standards. To be fair, most of the world was living at this level of poverty, so it isn’t unique to Japan.

 

I found a gentleman who posted some prices of armor from the tail end of the Muromachi era. We have three levels of armor he mentions; upper class full armor, lower class full armor, and hara-ate (a type of cuirass that only protects the front belly). The hara-ate is approximately 2 kanmon. This is about $2,000 USD. This is pretty expensive for belly armor (maybe it came with a simple leather hat?). This was better than peasants could buy and what a lower ranked samurai, or an upper ranked ashigaru (foot solider) might have. They might have been able to buy it themselves or they might have been outfitted with it, by their boss. In an agrarian society this would have been a VERY expensive piece of armor, and it didn’t even offer that much protection. For a wealthy farmer a better buy would have been an ox, for the same 2 kanmon price. Oxen were very popular beasts of burden. 

 

For an average suit of armor, a warrior (at this point it probably would have been exclusively samurai, not ashigaru) would have to come up with 7 kanmon. There is no explanation about what this comes with. I would assume a full body armor, shoulders, helmet and likely shin, thigh and arm guards. It might have just been the body, shoulders and a helmet. This is $7,000 for very simple armor. There would be no bells or whistles, no fancy brass trim, printed leather covering, etc. This is a fighting man’s armor. Now, we might think to ourselves, $7,000 isn’t THAT much, the price of a used car, maybe? But remember we aren’t dealing with 21st century Japan, Canada, US, etc. but an agrarian Japan where most people would have lived in what today we would consider abject poverty. This $7,000 would have been nigh impossible for most of the population. 

 

Then we get into the fancy stuff. These armors would have cost several dozen kanmon. We are talking $80,000 or more for a suit of armor. This is the bells and whistles. Gilded plates with real gold, full body armor, and every inch of you covered in steel, rawhide leather, and silk. Copious amount of lacquer harden your armor and protect it for centuries. Wooden gods and devotions adorn your helmet as votive offerings of protection.

 

These are your commanders, generals, and warlords. These are the super-rich and powerful of society. Some of these guys were so rich that they might have a few different suits, each as expensive as the last! 

 

Today we are far richer, and far more capable to buying something like this. Sadly, we don’t value quality like they did back then. There are craftsmen alive today that can make these armors, and they cost close to what they would have cost then. It might cost $25,000-500,000 for a new custom suit of armor, but we have other priorities. We no longer fight in these armors so there is very little practical reason to have one made. There are also much cheaper options.

 

There are numerous factories in China that make the Japanese style armors for costume. Many of the Chinese factories even supply the parts to be assembled in Japan by Japanese factories. These armors cost a fraction of the price, but you get a fraction of the quality. We value cheap and disposable/replaceable over true craftsmanship. Somehow these craftsmen have figured out how to survive practicing a dying art (I suspect a lot of their income is from repairing old armors, and not making new pieces). 

 

Not everyone can prioritize traditionally-made, modern, medieval armor, but it is something to think about as you admire the antique armors in the museum and online. These things were expensive back then and they remain so today, for good reason.

 

For reference, a photo of a modern made okitenugui by the very talented American katchushi Arthur Goetz. 

[Arthur G]

Another issue I think that is very important to bring up is that it's often no longer thought of as armor!

One of the things that I have focused on a lot is the practical side of everything I'm making. Because I am sizing everything to be worn by my modern customer, I might as well make it protect their noggin 

A lot of the modern factory armor is lacking in a huge amount of ways in regards to the protective qualities of the original stuff. There's a reason armor is cold hardened with a hammer in the Japanese style and not pressed. Rivets have a lot of very important functions, and welds don't don't work the same way. Then there is a ton of stuff going on with the geometry of these.... Urushi as well has multiple functions, and even the lacing. Kuteuchi produces a structure in the lace not present in machine woven lace which prevents it from unravelling if some of the strands are cut.

So in those days, we're not of course just buying something for looks, but in essence you are buying something to keep you alive. Spending that amount of money to keep yourself from getting gibbed seems like a decent investment even in light of the relative cost. There are many layers to the added value of it when you really think about it. For example, you could even look at the impact it'd have on localized economies if too many of their men didn't come home from a war. The overall rice tax yield would decline proportionally I'd imagine; armoring your local conscripts might have a lot of different economic angles to it as well worth pondering.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

Great thread, weren't also the prices rising during the edo period? I remember reading in Trevor Absolon's book that some good quality gusoku would cost a year's worth of income for Samurai. I'd be interested in knowing how much an O-Yoroi would have costed to a samurai from the mid edo Era as I haven't been able to find a value. 

 

The cost even today is justified, when compared to European plate armor, a 15th century or 16th century Gothic or Italian full plate armor made in western Europe will cost around $30k and could cost more. There are those made in Eastern Europe that are cheaper but still in the 5 digits. 

 

It's the second time I've seen that picture and I'm still as impressed as the first, I'm glad to see that the Saika school way still exists. Thank you, Arthur, for preserving this.

 

[chris covington]

2 hours ago, FrenchBreadPrime said:

Great thread, weren't also the prices rising during the edo period? I remember reading in Trevor Absolon's book that some good quality gusoku would cost a year's worth of income for Samurai. I'd be interested in knowing how much an O-Yoroi would have costed to a samurai from the mid edo Era as I haven't been able to find a value. 

 

The cost even today is justified, when compared to European plate armor, a 15th century or 16th century Gothic or Italian full plate armor made in western Europe will cost around $30k and could cost more. There are those made in Eastern Europe that are cheaper but still in the 5 digits. 

 

It's the second time I've seen that picture and I'm still as impressed as the first, I'm glad to see that the Saika school way still exists. Thank you, Arthur, for preserving this.

 

 I only have the prices I listed, so I can't say for sure about Edo prices. 

 

European armor is tricky too because of value fluctuations but here are some ball park numbers on British armors. The value of the pound varied wildly across history. I use the National Archives converter page to help with that (https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/#currency-result). A suit of armor owned by an unnamed knight in 1374 cost about £17. This is about $12,500 US today. The Duke of Gloucester commissioned an armor in 1397 for £103 or about $80,000 today. In 1614 the Prince of Wales commissioned an engraved and gilded suit of full plate armor for £340 or about $57,000 today. This is very comparable to the prices listed for Japanese armor when translated into modern USD. Without more data it would be unfair to draw too many conclusions, but if you'll indulge me a little, I think we can see that the cost of defending yourself was pretty standard across the board and continues to be valued fairly today. 

 

The okitenugui helmet that Arthur is working on is a piece of art (ha! no pun intended). It is a replica of a very famous helmet misattributed to Kusanoki Masashige. I have seen a few attempts by famous smiths to replicate it with varying degrees of success. Arthur's is by far the most authentic and accurate replica. Arthur also has the added challenge of fitting it to a modern western head, far more oval in shape than the typical 16th century Japanese skull (which tended to be more round). He had to scale the helmet up to fit the wearer and address the added length to the sides so that it could be wearable. I'm sure Arthur could better explain some of the optical illusions he had to use to get it to look right. 

 

Arthur is something of a madman (sorry Arthur). Every rivet was hand filed to shape. Each of the washers was hand cut and filed to create the flower design just like the original. Even the orange odoshi was hand woven in the kuteuchi style. There have been no short cuts taken. Watching this helmet materialize has been a pleasure. 

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Miura]

This is all great information. One tidbit that i read previously was that a samurai was expected to spend the same amount on his armor as he did his house.  When i visited the ashigaru houses in Kaga it made me think about why their armors are so nice. Their houses weren’t far off from officer grade samurai in other domains. 

[Miura]

That helmet really has materialized to be something beautiful and compelling. 

[chris covington]

30 minutes ago, Miura said:

This is all great information. One tidbit that i read previously was that a samurai was expected to spend the same amount on his armor as he did his house.  When i visited the ashigaru houses in Kaga it made me think about why their armors are so nice. Their houses weren’t far off from officer grade samurai in other domains. 

That is an interesting point. Obviously the Maeda were filthy rich, second only to the Tokugawa, so it makes sense their men were well kept. 

 

Mr. Tokugawa Tsunenari wrote in his book “The Edo Inheritance” that one of his coworkers at Nippon Yusen was the head of the Maeda clan. Their boss would yell, “Tokugawa, Maeda, get in here!” It was the first time anyone likely yelled like that since Toyotomi Hideyoshi! 🤣

[Tengu1957]

Its a bit difficult to equate a dollar amount for an armor and what the actual cost of living was during the Edo period. I had always read that fertilizer was in short quantity in Japan and that human waste was kept and sold to people who resold it as fertilizer to farmers. It was said that if 3 people lived in a rented house and sold their waste to the fertilizer salesmen it would make enough that they basically could live rent free.

 

I also have copies of a Japanese armor sellers catalog from New York in the 1930's. You could buy complete suits of Daimyo quality armor for $250-400. Keeping in mind that this was sold out of a retail shop in the heart of New York the overhead was probably higher than in Japan and since it was an oddity it was probably selling for more than it was in Japan at the time. 

 

Armor equal to a cost of the house is probably true but a house could be either a hovel or a mansion so the quality can be quite far apart.  

[chris covington]

2 hours ago, Tengu1957 said:

Its a bit difficult to equate a dollar amount for an armor and what the actual cost of living was during the Edo period. I had always read that fertilizer was in short quantity in Japan and that human waste was kept and sold to people who resold it as fertilizer to farmers. It was said that if 3 people lived in a rented house and sold their waste to the fertilizer salesmen it would make enough that they basically could live rent free.

 

I also have copies of a Japanese armor sellers catalog from New York in the 1930's. You could buy complete suits of Daimyo quality armor for $250-400. Keeping in mind that this was sold out of a retail shop in the heart of New York the overhead was probably higher than in Japan and since it was an oddity it was probably selling for more than it was in Japan at the time. 

 

Armor equal to a cost of the house is probably true but a house could be either a hovel or a mansion so the quality can be quite far apart.  

It is difficult to nail down cost of living between cultures and eras. The Edo era is a completely different ball of wax, too. 

 

The price of antiques ebbs and flows with interest in the items. $400 US from 1930, with inflation would be about $7,000 today, a steal deal, but I don't think the interest in Japanese armor was high then (keeping in mind there was a depression going on, too). I recently went through some of my comic books at my parent's house. I was flabbergasted at the prices some of these books are commanding now.

 

I'm talking about the cost of armor when ordered new, not the collector's market. The cost for new armor seems fairly stable between at least two cultures (English and Japanese), and during various points in time (14th cen. and 17th cen. England, 16th cen. Japan, and modern day). The value of the artisan it seems has stayed the same, which I find very interesting. The percentage of people with that level of purchasing power has greatly changed, but the overall value of the workmanship seems pretty stable. I'd love to find and chart more data points, across different cultures, and eras, but that is a project beyond my current time management. 

 

The cost/quality of a house vs. armor was the point Mr. Mirua was making, I think. The Kaga ashigaru had a very high standard of living, with nice houses. They also had high quality armor. Impoverished clans probably had poor quality homes and poor kit. This makes sense. Of course, like in some very poor neighborhood you see people living in government housing and driving a fancy car. So maybe there were situations like that? Living in a hovel and rocking shiny armor? :D

 

Chris

[Gakusee]

So, on that particular kabuto: another not fully professional but dedicated Katchushi enthusiast (and NKBKHK board member) in Japan, the late Ostuka san, also made a rather impressive replica. He apparently made a lot of armours and kabuto, even though professionally he was a company manager. I presume he will fall in Andrew’s “craftsman” category. But I was impressed by his various creations which were donated to the NKBKHK. 
Please see attached courtesy of the NKBKHK and their monthly magazine. 

[Gakusee]

To revert back to the original post and original questions. 
 

I have been provided with an image of an Edo document outlining the prices for various parts of a Miyochin armour suit. Unfortunately, it is not fully translated but Markus Sesko has helped with some of the text (thank you very much, Markus!). 
 

do & kusazuri 7 ryō+

kabuto by Munehisa: 10 ryō,

sode 4 ryō,

kote 3+ ryō

[something] 3+ ryo

 jinbaori 1 ryō

etc 

The whole thing adds ups to a lot of gold coins…. More than 30 altogether 

 

1 ryo=1 oban= 1 gold coin. There was some fluctuation over time in the gold content of a gold coin but that was a lot of money. 1 koku was roughly worth 1 ryu but it fluctuated a bit over time. 
 

I advise people to dig out Markus’ treatise “Sword prices, origami and samurai income”. In there he very clearly explains different salaries for hatamoto and gokenin (measured in both rice and coins). In early 18c, the vast majority of hatamoto earnt less than 400 koku. A lower ranked regional hanshi earnt less than 4 ryo pa. A top ranked hatamoto in court earnt 2000 (but had to pay two thirds in taxes and maintain various lower grade retainers and vassals and had to borrow money to fulfill his duties). 
 

I quote from the above Markus’ article directly:

 

“Basically it can be said that the problem of shortage of money because of the obligatory duties to the bakufu was rife among all classes of samurai. High-ranking hatamoto with an income of from 1.000 to 3.000 koku were the worst affected, because top earners had certain reserves, and on the other hand the duties of the lowest ranks could be neglected.This becomes clear from the records of a samurai of the Chôshû fief with a basic income of 100 koku. After subtracting the cost of rice for feeding his family and seven obligatory retainers, he was able to change the remaining 17 koku and 4 sho of rice for 915 silver monme. From this amount, 120 monme was used for the rent of his house in Hagi (capital city of the Chôshû fief),
250 for a cook and a man, and the remaining 545 for food and clothes for a half year. If he could not cover the money for the other half through an officially approved second job.”

 

So the armours we admire and see in auctions and at dealers… They cost a lot of money back then and very few people could afford them. 

[chris covington]

1 hour ago, Gakusee said:

To revert back to the original post and original questions. 
 

I have been provided with an image of an Edo document outlining the prices for various parts of a Miyochin armour suit. Unfortunately, it is not fully translated but Markus Sesko has helped with some of the text (thank you very much, Markus!). 
 

do & kusazuri 7 ryō+

kabuto by Munehisa: 10 ryō,

sode 4 ryō,

kote 3+ ryō

[something] 3+ ryo

 jinbaori 1 ryō

etc 

The whole thing adds ups to a lot of gold coins…. More than 30 altogether 

 

1 ryo=1 oban= 1 gold coin. There was some fluctuation over time in the gold content of a gold coin but that was a lot of money. 1 koku was roughly worth 1 ryu but it fluctuated a bit over time. 
 

I advise people to dig out Markus’ treatise “Sword prices, origami and samurai income”. In there he very clearly explains different salaries for hatamoto and gokenin (measured in both rice and coins). In early 18c, the vast majority of hatamoto earnt less than 400 koku. A lower ranked regional hanshi earnt less than 4 ryo pa. A top ranked hatamoto in court earnt 2000 (but had to pay two thirds in taxes and maintain various lower grade retainers and vassals and had to borrow money to fulfill his duties). 
 

I quote from the above Markus’ article directly:

 

“Basically it can be said that the problem of shortage of money because of the obligatory duties to the bakufu was rife among all classes of samurai. High-ranking hatamoto with an income of from 1.000 to 3.000 koku were the worst affected, because top earners had certain reserves, and on the other hand the duties of the lowest ranks could be neglected.This becomes clear from the records of a samurai of the Chôshû fief with a basic income of 100 koku. After subtracting the cost of rice for feeding his family and seven obligatory retainers, he was able to change the remaining 17 koku and 4 sho of rice for 915 silver monme. From this amount, 120 monme was used for the rent of his house in Hagi (capital city of the Chôshû fief),
250 for a cook and a man, and the remaining 545 for food and clothes for a half year. If he could not cover the money for the other half through an officially approved second job.”

 

So the armours we admire and see in auctions and at dealers… They cost a lot of money back then and very few people could afford them. 

Thanks for contributing more to the thread!

 

I agree that it was an unobtainable amount of money for most. The numbers you show are on par. 30 ryo would be about 30 koku. A koku is about $500 UD so about $15,000 US today. I suggested $7,000, based on my numbers, was nigh impossible. Doubling just makes it worse! 

 

We have far greater purchase power today, and a greater percentage of the population today has that purchase power. That being said, modern made traditional armor is a luxury most still can’t/won’t swing. We could have a katchushi make us armor, or get a car to take us to work. For most the answer is simple.

 

Chris

[chris covington]

2 hours ago, Gakusee said:

So, on that particular kabuto: another not fully professional but dedicated Katchushi enthusiast (and NKBKHK board member) in Japan, the late Ostuka san, also made a rather impressive replica. He apparently made a lot of armours and kabuto, even though professionally he was a company manager. I presume he will fall in Andrew’s “craftsman” category. But I was impressed by his various creations which were donated to the NKBKHK. 
Please see attached courtesy of the NKBKHK and their monthly magazine. 

Mr. Otsuka’s example is one of the better examples. But as you say, he wasn’t professional. That is the difference between the enthusiasts and the people trained. This helmet has a pretty obvious and easy to see point. Compare the spiked rivets on this and on Arthur’s helmet. Mr. Otsuka’s work used nails for rivets, much unlike the original and Arthur’s work. Modern Japanese hobbyists employ this shortcut technique, and the results are usually glaring. It is also a good point to evaluate the many fake okitenugui that come on the market (I of course don’t mean to imply Mr. Otsuka was making fakes, only that fakers use the same technique). Sadly, most people don’t study these things deeply, and buy on face value and an auction house’s description. 

 

Best regards,

Chris

[Arthur G]

This really is an incredible write up Chris. I've seen you refine it over the last year or so and it's just excellent. I honestly think it's not a bad price guide to work off of actually on my end.

In regards to the compliments on my work there, all of you are far too kind. I'm not good at receiving praise, as I'm not used to it  I hope the finished form of it still gets the same reaction. It might be a bit jarringly different when the shikoro and some other accoutrements are there.

That document you shared there is also incredible Gakusee. Things like this are very rare to see. My team with reviving Tsuda-ryu found a fantastic document outlining a matchlock order for Jiyusai-ryu. We gleaned a lot of invaluable information from it.

[Luc T]

I Know Mr Otsuka for a while, he is a successful entrepreneur.  I had no idea he ever made a kabuto.    Apparently as a true Japanese, he did not show off with his skills.

Orikasa sensei once told me it is necessary to make a kabuto one in your life to understand the construction.   Small detail, he ws talking about a 62 plate suji kabuto.

[Gakusee]

2 hours ago, Luc T said:

I Know Mr Otsuka for a while, he is a successful entrepreneur.  I had no idea he ever made a kabuto.    Apparently as a true Japanese, he did not show off with his skills.

Orikasa sensei once told me it is necessary to make a kabuto one in your life to understand the construction.   Small detail, he ws talking about a 62 plate suji kabuto.

 

• Luc, it was not only kabuto but whole armours and also it looks like whole koshirae, accessories, etc. 

 

• Chris, looking at what Otsuka san has made, if I were to extrapolate, I think if he probably put his mind to it he would have been able to make the rivets. Why he did not, I am not sure, but the skill and ability of that gentleman seems to have been very high. He also studied with professional katchushi. 
   

Below are excerpts from the magazine with his creations which the family donated for study purposes to the NKBKHK. 

[Luc T]

2 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Luc, it was not only kabuto but whole armours and also it looks like shirasaya etc. 

 

Chris, looking at what Otsuka san has made, if I were to extrapolate, I think if he probably put his mind to it he would have been able to make the rivets. Why he did not, I am not sure, but the skill and ability of that gentleman seems to have been very high. He also studied with professional katchushi. 
 

Below are excerpts from the magazine with his creations which the family donated for study purposes to the NKBKHK. 

I see, it’s from the last magazine.  I did not receive it yet due to custom troubles.

[Bugyotsuji]

Michael means the electronic version.

[FrenchBreadPrime]

 

3 hours ago, Gakusee said:

 

• Luc, it was not only kabuto but whole armours and also it looks like whole koshirae, accessories, etc. 

 

• Chris, looking at what Otsuka san has made, if I were to extrapolate, I think if he probably put his mind to it he would have been able to make the rivets. Why he did not, I am not sure, but the skill and ability of that gentleman seems to have been very high. He also studied with professional katchushi. 
   

Below are excerpts from the magazine with his creations which the family donated for study purposes to the NKBKHK. 

Mr. Otsuka's work is impressive to say the least. I would be surprised if he did not know how to make rivets. Perhaps he did not make them because of time reasons, though I do not wish to spew bullshit, it's just my guess. 

Also, when were these pictures taken? I may be misremembering but haven't some of them been presented in an older book? I'm certain I had already that Akechi Mitsuhide embossed Namban-do replica somewhere, with the red gawa(or what appears to be gawa?) on the suneate. 

[chris covington]

4 hours ago, Gakusee said:

 

• Luc, it was not only kabuto but whole armours and also it looks like whole koshirae, accessories, etc. 

 

• Chris, looking at what Otsuka san has made, if I were to extrapolate, I think if he probably put his mind to it he would have been able to make the rivets. Why he did not, I am not sure, but the skill and ability of that gentleman seems to have been very high. He also studied with professional katchushi. 
   

Below are excerpts from the magazine with his creations which the family donated for study purposes to the NKBKHK. 

He was certainly skilled. I rather like his tachi koshirae. 

 

I have no idea why many modern makers choose nails over custom rivets. I don't think the spike rivets are so much difficult to make, as they are tedious and time consuming (Arthur, correct me if I'm wrong). But on armors and helmets like Mr. Otsuka's I can't imagine saving a few days of file work would have been a concern. It is likely a tiny detail overlooked, or an attempt to solve a problem that just wasn't a traditional solution. I can't say. All of the modern fakers have run with that though, which makes spotting fakes so much easier. 

 

A lot of modern guys go 95% of the way on projects, but that last 5% is where the magic is. 

 

Thanks for sharing the photos and the good conversation.

 

Best regards,

Chris

[chris covington]

5 hours ago, Luc T said:

I Know Mr Otsuka for a while, he is a successful entrepreneur.  I had no idea he ever made a kabuto.    Apparently as a true Japanese, he did not show off with his skills.

Orikasa sensei once told me it is necessary to make a kabuto one in your life to understand the construction.   Small detail, he ws talking about a 62 plate suji kabuto.

Arthur challenged me to take a hammer to steel. I've turned the basement kitchen into a small workshop space. I'll never have the skill with it that some of these gentlemen have, but it has been very enlightening. I have a new found respect for the traditional artisans and a much more firm grasp on the "why" the old smiths did what they did. I don't think I have the patience for 62 plates! 

 

All the best,

Chris

[chris covington]

1 hour ago, FrenchBreadPrime said:

 

Mr. Otsuka's work is impressive to say the least. I would be surprised if he did not know how to make rivets. Perhaps he did not make them because of time reasons, though I do not wish to spew bullshit, it's just my guess. 

Also, when were these pictures taken? I may be misremembering but haven't some of them been presented in an older book? I'm certain I had already that Akechi Mitsuhide embossed Namban-do replica somewhere, with the red gawa(or what appears to be gawa?) on the suneate. 

I am sure he had every skill needed to make those spike rivets. From what I have seen they are time consuming, but not impossible to make. Just a LOT of file work. I think it was more likely a detail simply overlooked. The nails probably were "good enough" or maybe that is just how he learned? It was a solution to a problem, just a more modern solution.

 

Maybe in the past the old Saika smiths would have done the same, but they didn't have a hardware store where they could just pick up a box of 500 roofing nails. They had to make everything they used themselves, or obtain those parts from a craftsman. This is why I appreciate Arthur's work, he has the option to take shortcuts, to use modern solutions, but his personal demand for authenticity in his work drives him to work like the original smiths did. How many people making armor are doing that today?  

[chris covington]

6 hours ago, Arthur G said:

This really is an incredible write up Chris. I've seen you refine it over the last year or so and it's just excellent. I honestly think it's not a bad price guide to work off of actually on my end.

In regards to the compliments on my work there, all of you are far too kind. I'm not good at receiving praise, as I'm not used to it  I hope the finished form of it still gets the same reaction. It might be a bit jarringly different when the shikoro and some other accoutrements are there.

That document you shared there is also incredible Gakusee. Things like this are very rare to see. My team with reviving Tsuda-ryu found a fantastic document outlining a matchlock order for Jiyusai-ryu. We gleaned a lot of invaluable information from it.

I agree. I think some people will be put off by it (most of those karuta tatami shikoro we've seen are a little jarring to the modern eye, right?). The Edo aesthetic has really colored our understanding of what these helmets should look like. We can see Mr. Otsuka added a more typical shikoro, and as we know the original helmet was modified for one. I think that is a fair solution but it doesn't capture the original intent of the katchushi or how the helmet was originally used and worn. As you can see on the hachitsuke no ita Mr. Otsuka didn't even bother drilling the holes for the original shikoro configuration. He knew from the start he wasn't going to mess around and try to figure out the original shikoro. 

[Alex A]

For a non armour dude, this is a very interesting thread, cheers.

 

Taking the expensive costs of armour into account, now wondering how many would have had to make do with "mix and match" armours, bit like today with collectors on a budget putting an armour together.

 

Hand me downs, 2nd hand and battle field pick-ups.

 

From the cost, im assuming an high number but as said before, you don't find much about this in books.

[Arthur G]

3 hours ago, chris covington said:

I don't think the spike rivets are so much difficult to make, as they are tedious and time consuming (Arthur, correct me if I'm wrong).

Oh they're a nightmare. My hands were so raw after making yours it's not even funny. Each one of them probably took at least half an hour to 40 minutes, and that was after I figured out the method and got faster at it  I didn't want to tell you how bad it was haha

That's not including the za.

[Caracal]

Very good thread, and instructive,

Thanks for more of this topic and other similar topics for those of us who don't have the knowledge yet.

 

//Robert

[Shogun8]

5 hours ago, Alex A said:

For a non armour dude, this is a very interesting thread, cheers.

 

Taking the expensive costs of armour into account, now wondering how many would have had to make do with "mix and match" armours, bit like today with collectors on a budget putting an armour together.

 

Hand me downs, 2nd hand and battle field pick-ups.

 

From the cost, im assuming an high number but as said before, you don't find much about this in books.

In his book about the armours of the Uesugi, Takemura-san writes that many if not most Sengoku armours - even those of daimyo class - incorporated different elements that were not original to each other. Inevitable and understandable during a time of war when efficiency and practicality were paramount. Nevertheless, many of these armours - especially from the Uesugi - managed to still be beautiful even though not homogenous.

[Alex A]

Interesting John, good to know

 

Cheers

[Arthur G]

Oh absolutely John. In fact with my teppoutai I'm building up, I'm actively encouraging that with everyone with their gear as they get it together.

Do not do cookie cutter matching gear under any circumstances, unless it's a particular Edo period group with all matching stuff. If you're doing Sengoku/Momoyama, nobody in the group should match each other, let alone individual components of your kit 

[FrenchBreadPrime]

2 hours ago, Shogun8 said:

In his book about the armours of the Uesugi, Takemura-san writes that many if not most Sengoku armours - even those of daimyo class - incorporated different elements that were not original to each other. Inevitable and understandable during a time of war when efficiency and practicality were paramount. Nevertheless, many of these armours - especially from the Uesugi - managed to still be beautiful even though not homogenous.

It's a really special aspect of Japanese military art, and it's very reminding of Ancient Greece in a way, which is interesting as both civilizations developed at different eras and far away from eachother, but both featured an incredible level of variety Greeks had variety in crests, armor types and decorations, and corinthian helmets, especially archaic ones, are dehumanizing and inspired by their art and myth (phallic shape). On another hand the variety of what they could use was limited especially when compared to the Japanese that thought about lacquering their armor. But it's always fun seeing Nio-Do or other variants of the Hotoke-Do bearing stylized human features, just like greek bell cuirasses did too. Sorry for going off topic, but these are similarities that I like to point, as non-homogenous armies with a well developed artistic military field are rare.

It's fun imagining how some battlefields might have looked like, with some warriors wearing colorful armors reminding of mythological creatures, these armors stand out and scream "come and fight me", but on another hand, one would probably be less willing to go against somebody willing to stand out as much ? 

 

2 hours ago, Arthur G said:

Oh absolutely John. In fact with my teppoutai I'm building up, I'm actively encouraging that with everyone with their gear as they get it together.

Do not do cookie cutter matching gear under any circumstances, unless it's a particular Edo period group with all matching stuff. If you're doing Sengoku/Momoyama, nobody in the group should match each other, let alone individual components of your kit 

The mention of teppotai reminds me of a question I had, since you're working on both matchlocks and armors, will you ever do a Tameshi Gusoku ? And how would the price for such a set be calculated ? (finding a way to stay on topic too hehe)