Who came closest to reproducing Nashiji hada?

[Pincheck]

Maybe this topic has already been done to death, if it has then I apologise for dragging it up again. But, I have a sword that has a really fine koitame hada, almost nashiji hada (depending on your perspective) but there's almost no way it is an Awataguchi. So I was wondering, in the entire history of nihonto, who in your opinion came closest to reproducing nashiji hada? Can it be done now?

 

Aoe Chirimen
 Awataguchi Nashiji
 Hizen Konuka
 Rai ko-itame

Mine

[Guest Simon R]

Judging by my Fujiwara Jumyo, he had a really good crack at it in the late 1930s.

[Franco D]

In order to begin answering your question and narrowing down the possibilities for your sword, it is essential to get the time period of manufacture correct. Otherwise, you may end up chasing your own tail around searching for the answer. Kantei begins with correctly determining time period first in order to avoid becoming completely lost, as Arnold Frenzel would say. 

 

Regards,

[paulb]

Jack

one of the things you need o look for when trying to define hada is the amount of activity within the ji. Nashi, Chirimen, Rai and to a slightly less extent konuka, all have ji-nie and in the case of nashiji a lot of chikei running through them. It is very difficult to photograph but if the source of the images you have used is what I think it is then all of the swords used had profuse ji-nie and activity in the ji and running through the hamon based on very bright ko-nie.  In your image I can see what looks like very tight ko-itame but no activity within the ji (maybe photograph or quality of polish). I agree with Franco before trying to tie it down based on jigane try and determine age based on size and shape as a starting point then you can refine the search further.

[Pincheck]

I would dearly love to date this sword but in this case that seems to be easier said than done. Several knowledgeable people have seen it IRL (including you Paul, you thought Hizen at the time) and so far bids have ranged from early nanbokucho to late edo. It seems like this one is a tough nut to crack because the sugata suggests late kamakura or early nanbokucho, but the hamon is laser straight ko nie suguha hotsure with not much else going on besides some feint sunagashi and one short patch of nijuba. No Ashi, no yo, nothing. It does look to me like it has bucket loads of ji nie and some fine chikei, plus some feint bo utsuri and hakikake on the boshi. But it’s all subtle stuff, nothing outrageous at all. Not what you might expect from a typical koto blade. The ryo chiri bo hi is of a style I’ve only ever seen on one very tired  mumei sword thought to be koto and the hamon I’ve only ever seen on an Iga Ishido sword, of kanbun Shinto vintage. Maybe it could be a shinshinto copy but the patina on the nakago looks too deep to be shinshinto and everyone that’s seen it IRL says it’s older than that, so who knows?

[paulb]

Hi Jack,

I am sorry I don't remember the sword.

The problem in identifying the age of an unsigned blade if it is Hizen is that they tended to work in a fairly uniform and timeless sugata rather than following the trends of the time. So a blade from early Edo Hizen will not look greatly different from either earlier works produced in the Muromachi era or pieces made in late Edo (this is a generality there will always be exceptions). As you say later smiths also made copies of much earlier works. Something I didn't pick up in your description, how thick is the blade?

The hamon could well suggest Hizen how thick is the nioiguchi? Hizen blades are often described as having a thick "belt like" nioiguchi with ko-nie running through it. hakikake in the boshi and bo-utsuri would move it away from Hizen.

My gut feel is that it is likely later Edo and likely Hizen but that is said without great conviction.

Sorry not sure if this has been much help  

[Rivkin]

I think its a rather hard/vague topic as despite its simplicity, high quality itame is all different. Awataguchi tends to have shape-depth to it which in my opinion Rai does not, looking more like a dash of sorts. High class Soshu (Sa and Sadamune) itame can actually be somewhat larger and have even graded color of sorts, ji nie crystals being smaller than the grain.

What you have has arguable a weak hamon and itame is a bit harsh. Though its absolutely impossible to tell by just this image alone, but having jigane and ashi which appear as if drawn by hand is Bungo trait. In the best works its actually attractive and easy to read, the image is standing out. In lesser examples it comes out as if jigane is scratched it with a nail. It also tends to nagare in places and they experimented a lot with utsuri.

So I would seriously consider Bungo, but its obviously nowhere a certain statement without having the whole blade to study.

[Pincheck]

Well, here are some more photos of it. What do you think?

 

686mm (27”) nagasa

12mm of very even sori

Chu kissaki 33mm,

28.5mm width at machi

21mm width at yokote (26% taper)

Kasane across shonogi: 7mm at machi, 5.5mm at yokote

Kasane across mune: 6.6mm at machi, 4.9mm at yokote

Weight 760g

 

[Alex A]

Maybe look into Edo Osaka also.

[Guest Simon R]

It's a beautiful blade, regardless of school.

[Rivkin]

Its probably 1650-1660.

Does not have nagare-masame of Owari or Kii, looks like either Hizen or Bungo Yukinaga.

[Franco D]

Images from above; at the ko shinogi?, at munemachi?

Moto kasane? Saki kassane? Moto haba? Saki haba? Width of nakago at widest point?

Close up images of nakago?

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

[Pincheck]

On 4/10/2023 at 4:17 PM, Rivkin said:

Its probably 1650-1660.

Does not have nagare-masame of Owari or Kii, looks like either Hizen or Bungo Yukinaga.

Now that I’ve had time to do some research, I think there is a way you could be right on all counts. I showed this sword to a Hizen collector who said he didn’t think it was Hizen Tadayoshi line which threw me off the hizen theory and I had discounted Bungo since I seem to remember them producing a coarse mokume hada and generally having a much wider shinogi ji, neither of which this sword has. But, the hada, hamon, the narrow shinogi ji and some other characteristics do resemble a sword I’ve seen by 1st gen Shizuhiro of the Igo Ishida school, which was an offshoot of Bungo Takada. Shizuhiro signed as Hizen no kami (lord of Hizen province). His work seems to be rare and I’ve only seen two Shizuhiro swords on the net, both had a very tight ko itame hada that looks a lot like mine, one had a laser straight suguha hotsure with no ashi like mine, both had narrow shinogi ji and seemed to follow a kamakura/nanbokucho style sugata, although both slightly different. Shizuhiro worked around the mid to late 1600s. Whether it is Igo Ishida or not, who knows, but it seems like a possibility. So thank you, I appreciate the help. 

[reinhard]

Hi Jack,

Your katana looks like ShinShinTo-work to me.
Let me explain:

It has average katana-length but the nakago was either greatly shortened or otherwise reshaped.
Sori is still extremely shallow.
This excludes older works of Awataguchi, Rai, Aoe.
Let's suppose the sugata fits Kambun-Shinto measurements.
Other features do not.

Hizen-To was mentioned, but neither sugata nor hada fit the criteria.
Hizen-To sugata is strongly curved beyond the usual ShinTo fashion.
Hizen's konuka-hada, which tried to emulate Awataguchi's nashiji hada, was unique in its clarity and structure.
I can't see it here.
Hizen-To were also much appreciated for their beautiful boshi, following the curvature of the kissaki precisely and returning shortly.
The boshi on your sword is somewhat fringy and shows a pretty long kaeri.

But most of all:
The hada of your blade is an extremely tight and crispy ko-itame.
In the past conservative polish left this as "muji" or muji-fu".
It is a unique feature of many blades made during the 19th century.

reinhard

[Pincheck]

Thanks, I think. Like I said earlier, people can’t even agree on an approximate age of this one.

[Brian]

Jack, that info should be given a lot of weight if you know the source. If you are combining the feedback you are getting...let's just say that if it were me, I'd put that info near the top of the pile

[Alex A]

 I never thought it resembled Hizen Konuka either but assumed folk were talking about Hizen work done in a tight ko- itame which gets a mention from time to time, not Konuka. 

 

I see why Reihnard is saying Shinshinto.

 

The reason i mentioned Osaka, in the image above it reminds me of one of my old blades. VERY tight ko-itame with same hamon. Dates to 1750 ish. Obscure smith

 

This maybe one of those blades where judges scratch their heads and you will get different attributions from a different Shinsa.

 

Its always fun with unsigned blades.