Killing Me Softly With Your Love: Strangling Out the Traditional Japanese arts by loving them too much. By Andrew Mancabelli

[Miura]

 

Disclaimer:  I support any level of craftsman and people who work with their hands. The following is meant to enlighten people as to the struggles that people living the life of traditional artisans go through. If you are a craftsman, this is not meant to insult or degrade, but rather help you to understand your current position in the hierarchy of craftsmanship so that you may respect what other people have gone through. Also I hope that this essay helps potential customers to make educated decisions in their decisions to preserve and protect the traditional arts of Japan (and other countries in general).

 

 

 Killing Me Softly With Your Love:  Strangling Out the Traditional Japanese arts by loving them too much. 

 

I entered the world of antiquities when I was five years old.  Excavating my first site as a field hand in upstate New York, not far from where I was born.  Growing up, I spent years of summers volunteering as a field hand, and eventually got jobs as an  archeologist and museum specialist by the age of 16.  I guess it was from a very young age that I found the value in preserving tangible cultural properties for the future.   It's a long story, but several degrees in archeology, Asian studies and a Japanese National fellowship later, I was working with Japan’s most renown armor maker.   I had studied and collected armor for around 15 years before meeting him. I actually thought the art had died out and there were no more traditional armor makers. During my time as a research fellow at Jochi University (Sophia University to you English speaking Jesuits), I sought out only traditional artisans.  Traditional artisans are people who use traditional Japanese techniques, tools, and materials. Most importantly they are people who work and live as traditional artisans. In my research I found that there are several things that threaten greatly the existence of the Japanese traditional arts.

Before proceeding I would like to explain why I use the word “artisan” rather than the word “craftsman”.  In Japanese the word “shokunin” covers a variety of producers of goods. Today the word Shokunin even is used for sushi chefs. To differentiate producers of high grade art as opposed to the production of materials that are used to produce the art or finished product I think it necessary to make the differentiation here. In the Edo period it was generally forbidden for people to marry outside of their caste. With high grade artisans such as those who produced art for the samurai caste, however, there seems to be more mobility between the casts. In some cases Artisans were given samurai title, and in other cases samurai worked as artisans. There are other differentiations within the categories of Artisans as well that describes different ranks and orders depending on the level of the craft. Artisans who work in the higher arts have told me that the use of the English word craftsman is somewhat insulting to be used as a blanket definition for the Japanese “shokunin”.  Apparently over time it has become to broadly used, and has veered toward the meaning of simple handicraft.  For the genera of craftsmen I discuss here, the proper word would be more akin to “artisan” in my opinion.  

            Perhaps the greatest danger to the survival of traditional artisans is what I call the lay-craftsman. The lay-craftsman is a non-professional who imitates a traditional artisan.  In some cases, the lay-craftsman poses as an actual artisan and may even use actual traditional techniques and materials. They may even have developed a level of skill. I actually really respect people who try very hard to do this art on their own, and most people who engage in this as an avocation generally assert themselves as nothing more than a hobbiest who enjoys this art in their spare time.  Generally I am very happy to see such hobbiests trying to experience the real thing. Some, however, wish not only to obtain the joy of accomplishment that comes from completing a project but strive to acquire the status and accolades of a professional artisan of this field.   These such people are actually one of the greatest threats to traditional artisans for several reasons.  First of all, they have a separate source of income. Traditional Japanese artisans are a living culture. They must eat, sleep, and bleed their art.  When one starts down the path of a traditional artisan apprenticeship, they take a risk. Some deshi (apprentice) work for many years and never amount to anything…. So the investment of time is lost in the endeavor. The materials are very expensive, so in addition to the years not spent in another profession, if the apprenticeship is failed, the money spent on materials, travel, etc. is lost. In my case, not only did I have to endure the effects of urushi (traditional Japanese armor makers use real urushi) for two years until I developed natural immunity. As an apprentice, I had to endure the sometimes abusive and humiliating character of my teacher.  These experiences are rites of passage that traditionally trained artisans must endure. Because of the nature of the traditional apprenticeship, the traditional artisan is able to achieve a much higher level of skill than a lay-craftsman.   Additionally, the traditionally trained artisan achieves a degree of humility, and a respect and understanding of the proper materials.  Because lay-craftsmen only endure an internship on a part time basis, or learn through trial and error, they often do not develop any degree of respect for the artisans they are trying to emulate.  Therefore they might strive to misrepresent themselves and seek to occupy positions/jobs such as part time positions at a museum or educational institution that should be reserved for actual artisans. Because the lay-craftsman works for less, or in many cases works for free (their pay is the status and accolades of being viewed as a real artisan) the whole level of a  display, or event suffers. At the same time, the traditional artisan has income effectively stolen, and the institutions provide the public with a dumbed down low quality version of what the professional would provide. So in this instance, the museum, as well as the lay-craftsman are complicit in inflicting erasure of traditional artisanship.   I have witnessed such events happen in Japan over and over. In one case a lay-craftsman presented himself as a museum specialist as well as an armor maker. Because he was not a professional, he brought in other people who were at or below his level for the exhibition. So you had armors made by press, modern alloys, cashew urushi, non-silk lacing, modern made kozane.  Museum specialists should do museum jobs. Katchu Shi should be katchu shi. When hobbiests try to imitate these jobs, you get bad events that only the geekiest of the geeks is interested in. I have done a few exhibitions, all of which were successful, because as a trained museum specialist, and a Japanese artisan, I know how to do a proper display that garners the attention of the layman as well as the samurai fanatic.

 

Another way in which lay-craftsmen harm the survival of traditional culture is through the promotion and usage of non-traditional methods and materials. Because traditional artisanship is living culture, each individual art requires a pyramid of craftsmen who produce materials necessary to do good, professional, traditional work. For example, an armor maker relies on several different sources for raw materials such as leathers, silk cords, urushi, and so on. Each of these products requires trained craftsmen and tradesmen to produce them. **I use the term craftsman or tradesmen here rather than artisan because producers of materials requires a craft or is part of a trade, such as collection and refinement of urushi. However, urushi is a single component of a final product made by an artisan.

 I can bare witness to both the decline in availability of materials as well as a decline in the general quality of the products used in traditional Japanese armor, metal fittings, etc. over the span of my life.   I have worked in several fields of Japanese traditional art, not only Armor making.  Due to the popularity and prevalence of lay-craftsmen and the promotion and acceptance of inferior work, customers frequently go with the cheaper, faster, lower quality version of the traditional art. Lay-craftsmen who use non-traditional and inferior techniques tend to promote their craft as “same” or “as good as”, when this is not the case.  

In Japan, there is an old saying that goes something like this:  “The Kuge (royals) live in their own world isolated from the rest of society, and they spend most of their lives adhering to polity and protocol, aside from that they have nothing to do. Samurai are absorbed in books, and administration. Aside from that they have nothing to do. Farmers are busy in spring and fall. In between they have matsuri (festivals) and watch the crops grow. Merchants live off the hard work of others and do little work at all.  Shokunin (Craftsmen/Artisans) have no free time.” I find this to be generally true. Even today. In recent years the internet has become a very large part of information sharing.  Many real artisans tend to sty off of the net in general. Why? WE HAVE NO TIME! Most of us strive for perfection rather than accolades from people we don't know. Some feel that it is not their duty or agenda to share knowledge that they gained through many years of rigorous training. This would be something similar to that of Lawyers giving free legal advice all day long to people they don't know.  The best artisans are sought out by people who really want the real deal. Unfortunately, the web has not only become a great purveyor of information, but a great supplier of  mis-information as well. Finding an actual traditional Japanese artisan can be very difficult with the web of misinformation that is out there. Those of us who remain silent as we push forward in obtaining excellence, become buried by people who have an enormous amount of time to post their hobbies and projects on the internet and in some cases promote themselves as artisans when in actuality are employed in an entirely different profession.  Unfortunately it’s becoming quite difficult to even discern what is actually true on the internet. Real artisans have no time to operate social media, and lay craftsmen and hobbiest have all the time in the world to post their opinions and findings.  I think that I speak for many artisans when I say that its really difficult to get the attention of the public or even get the public to listen.  In some cases we are attacked for trying to educate people from our knowledge base. Rather than seek conflict many artisans just shut up and let people think what they want.  

Frequently art preservation organizations run derelict of their intended goals. I find it quite disheartening that many of the organizations claiming to “preserve and protect” the arts have all but abandoned the living traditions that are so important in maintaining the whole structure of the Japanese traditional artisan.  Some of the traditional “promotion and protection” organizations that I was member of in the past were somewhat bewildering to me.  Members would ask me to do work behind the scenes, and would keep it secret. On occasion they would order work, agree on a price, then not pay on completion and say something like; “I helped you before so Ill just take this for free.” Or in some cases prices were re-negotiated after completion. I later found from other craftsmen that this was a common tactic of the shonin (or merchant class) and its why most artisans only do jobs for half down up front and don't return the item unless payment is made in full.     These were people in the organizations that were supposed to be promoting and protecting the art.  Instead, I saw them manipulate and treat other craftsmen and artisans as slaves, and turn around and sell the completed work for a profit.  Additionally the organizations had no positions of authority occupied by craftsmen/artisans.   Sadly, such organizations were set up for the promotion and protection of the Japanese arts, but maintain no representation at the administrative levels of the artisans themselves.  I’m not sure what I would call such an organization, however, the words “preservation” and “protection” should probably be removed from the name and be replaced by the word “appreciation”.   I am not trying to create a bad image of arts promotion organizations, and most of the people who are members of such organizations have the best of intentions and hopes for the preservation of traditional culture and in fact are the best supporters of the arts.  However, from an artisan’s perspective, I think it should be taken into account that artisans who represent the arts that are supposedly being “preserved” and “protected” should be represented in the administration at the very least with the support coming from the members and fellow administration.     

In conclusion, traditional Japanese artisans and craftsmen have many hurdles to overcome for survival of the living traditional arts in the modern era. Through unintended consequences, the people who love the arts the most are slowly strangling them out of existence. Lay-craftsmen and hobbiests who earn their living in actuality in a totally different field lower the standard of quality, appreciation, and knowledge by accepting jobs that should be held by legitimate artisans and qualified and trained researchers and museum professionals. Organizations that were established to preserve and protect the traditional arts of Japan do not take into account the advice or opinions of the artisans and craftsmen who endure to protect the living culture.   Artisans practicing the arts as a way of life represent the living culture.  The living culture of traditional arts is the best way for them to survive.  There are enough hurdles to overcome in the modern era, however, one of the greatest threats to the survival of the traditional arts are the people who appreciate them the most.  As the number of traditional artisans diminish, the support pyramid of traditionally made products and materials, the routs of acquisition thereof, and the tradesmen procuring them is slowly diminished as a result. 

Hopefully this impromptu essay will create awareness and generate support for the traditional arts of Japan.  The best way to preserve and protect traditional culture and art is to participate by supporting a traditional artist. For they are the living culture that will hopefully be preserved and passed on to generations to come.   

 

[b.hennick]

Thank you, Andy, for the insight. 

[Arthur G]

So much I want to respond to here, but even just having dipped my toes in the water with this world for a few years I can relate to nearly every aspect of that already. It's honestly nice hearing all of this in a way because I know it's not just me.

I've dealt with some wild stuff already in a short time. Here are just a couple of things on my end.

I decided early on I am not going to be a restorer. I'm happy to stabilize things in emergency situations, but full on restoration I just don't have the stomach for. It's too nerve wracking for me.

I realized early on that there's an unfilled niche with traditional armor being made to be worn and used. Currently this niche is filled for reenactors with non-traditional armor made in factories in China.  People can either get it direct from there, or in the case of Japan, the components are made in China and then finished out by the Japanese company. For me, pressed out plates and modern paints just don't do it. And the majority of it is also based on Edo period styles that never saw a day of combat... So, I thought to myself, I should focus on making simple, war time armor. For now, I'm just focusing on kabuto for the most part, but I do want to branch out to suneate and dou. The hard part is making it affordable for people; I have to in essence work in accordance with the prices already set by Chinese factories. For your average person that is not a wealthy collector but rather a reenactor or martial artist, even a $3-5000 suit from China is a huge, huge investment. Charging more than that is a huge turn off. At the same time, the wealthy collectors won't have any interest in my work for a whole host of reasons. So, I'm trying to develop things that are as traditional as possible (some materials are extremely difficult to come by; for example I am having to use certain local substitutes for fusube-gawa), while still being something affordable to the kind of person that actually wants to use it. It's a tough niche to fill... The worst aspect of it is the tastes of the public have been shifted by the modern production line armor. In many cases your average person actually prefers the look of that to the real thing. I can't tell you how many people in this range of customers actually think of urushi as a negative thing, being convinced it's a poisonous substance and that the paint is actually superior... I could write a whole book about all of this but it'd bore everyone to tears.

The other issue is being approached by people with very, very ill intentions. In one case, I had someone demanding me give over all of my technical specs and knowledge on matchlocks for his company to reproduce them in India. I asked, will they be doing this at all traditionally? Will there be any effort made to actually help revive Japanese gunsmithing? Will you use oak and urushi for the stocks? etc. etc. Of course it was a flat out no. They lauged at the idea of that. Then they went on to tell me they wanted it all for free, and accused me of gatekeeping by setting exorbitant prices for my matchlocks. The reality of it is I'm charging a laughably low price for them, but nonetheless they accused me of setting the price at five times of what I actually was. It turned into some bizarre social justice thing where I owed it to them so they could undercut me and make non-traditional  matchlocks for a price just below mine. Needless to say I gave them an earful. They then offered to buy one from me to copy, and of course by that point in the conversation I couldn't take them seriously.

Another time I was approached by a collector who wanted a replacement nose for a menpo. I have a rule that I make all of my projects more or less public, trying to show each stage so people know exactly what they are getting from me. I don't hide anything. I told this collector first and foremost that I don't do any "secret" restoration work for people. I also firmly believe in mismatching replacement parts in terms of finish. Not overly so, but enough that it is apparent it is a replacement part, and cannot easily be made to appear original so as to scam people. To be extra safe, I add secret marks to my stuff only I know about in case a situation ever comes up. This collector wanted me to make a tengu nose for this menpo; immediately my radar was going off. There was of course no evidence this particular menpo ever originally had one. When I told him my above stipulations of mismatching and also making my work public, he bargained at first, and then when I didn't budge he cut the conversation.

It's easy to get worn down with all of this because you have more things working against you than for you. Trying to be an honest person in this world punishes you more often than not.

[uwe]

Thanks for this look behind the scenes!

 

There is still a lot to say and discuss, but the problems are very complex.

I may, however, make one comment. There is a reason for having so much lay craftsman and hobbyists! I’m only talking about the ones with good intentions, of course.

[Miura]

4 hours ago, uwe said:

Thanks for this look behind the scenes!

 

There is still a lot to say and discuss, but the problems are very complex.

I may, however, make one comment. There is a reason for having so much lay craftsman and hobbyists! I’m only talking about the ones with good intentions, of course.

Absolutely. BECAUSE ITS COOL.   

[Matsunoki]

Can I perhaps give  a different perspective? 

I guess you would categorise me as an ex lay craftsman, although the semantics are totally irrelevant.  I have never been to Japan, never served any apprenticeship but am totally self taught through trial and error. Please understand that I have never been involved in restoring swords or armour. I am not a creative artist but for 30 or so years I was a part time restorer of netsuke, shibayama (on ivory and gold lacquer) and okimono (wood and ivory).

 

My income  came from other sources but I do not believe my work ever created problems for the “professionals”…..because there are hardly any professionals anyway and the very few that do exist have a long waiting list for their skills….and rightly charge a professionals fee. 

 

What follows is heavily condensed.

 

Whilst dealing  in Meiji Art (metalwork, shibayama, cloisonné, ceramics, okimono etc) it struck me how  comparatively  inexpensive damaged shibayama, okimono and netsuke etc were. The difference in price between perfect and damaged was massive. I am talking about the very top quality pieces. It isn’t worth restoring low quality imo. 

 

This type of object -

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/24152/lot/295/a-magnificent-pair-of-gold-lacquer-and-inlaid-shibayama-vases-with-en-suite-stands-by-shibayama-yasumasa-meiji-era-1868-1912-late-19th-century-4/

 

 

So, as an experiment I decided to see if I could restore a few items. If a human made it in the first place then in theory a human could make it again.
 

To cut a long story short I discovered that I had a natural talent for carving which improved quickly. I set up up a workshop with precision high speed dentist type drills and cutters , polishers, miniature diamond wheel cutters and very many precision hand tools. I worked only with old original materials…..numerous varieties of mother of pearl and abalone, assorted woods and where needed I used damaged antique ivory etc. 

 

Again to cut a long story short I ended up working (again as a time consuming hobby) for several of the worlds top dealers in such objects. Using modern methods but the correct materials I could cast missing inlay pieces using dental moulding, transfer over onto the correct raw material and recarve to fit exactly using modern tooling in a very small fraction of the time it would have taken the original artist. To cut a mother of pearl flower to precisely fit its empty slot would take me minutes (excluding all detailed finishing work) The end result was indistinguishable from the original because there was no difference except for it’s age. The only thing I couldn’t do was faces (and hands did take a long time!) I learned many secrets, or rather I re-discovered many secrets that must have been used by the original Meiji craftsmen. 
 

Over the  course of those many years I restored many hundreds of objects in total worth a large fortune. It gave me an immense feeling of satisfaction and pride. Despite the stakes being very high regarding mishaps (it’s nerve shredding holding a £10k gold lacquer inro in one hand while you clean out the old glue using a 0.5mm cutter in the other) I enjoyed it all hugely. 
 

Much of my efforts were expended in correcting the work of so called professionals who cut corners in order to maximise income. I developed an intimate understanding of the objects and how they were originally made. There was a huge amount of delicate hand finishing ….carving and polishing etc. Yes I used modern glues so the inlay wouldn’t fall out and get lost again!

 

It never bothered me that my clients did very well as a result of my efforts. That’s how they make their living. The important thing was that the objects, once sad and often heavily damaged, lived again in pristine condition in prestige collections and even museums. That is the only important thing as far as I am concerned.

 

I could say a lot more about Miura’s opinions and sweeping statements which are  often highly assumptive and condescending, but I won’t.

…..and being “cool” has nothing to do with it. 
 

Fire away. Colin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[uwe]

43 minutes ago, Miura said:

Absolutely. BECAUSE ITS COOL.   

 

....not exactly what I meant, Andy!

Rather more what Colin was trying to say. There are indeed people out there (hobbyists and layman) trying seriously to preserve and rescue....

 

 

[Miura]

7 hours ago, Arthur G said:

So much I want to respond to here, but even just having dipped my toes in the water with this world for a few years I can relate to nearly every aspect of that already. It's honestly nice hearing all of this in a way because I know it's not just me.

I've dealt with some wild stuff already in a short time. Here are just a couple of things on my end.

I decided early on I am not going to be a restorer. I'm happy to stabilize things in emergency situations, but full on restoration I just don't have the stomach for. It's too nerve wracking for me.

I realized early on that there's an unfilled niche with traditional armor being made to be worn and used. Currently this niche is filled for reenactors with non-traditional armor made in factories in China.  People can either get it direct from there, or in the case of Japan, the components are made in China and then finished out by the Japanese company. For me, pressed out plates and modern paints just don't do it. And the majority of it is also based on Edo period styles that never saw a day of combat... So, I thought to myself, I should focus on making simple, war time armor. For now, I'm just focusing on kabuto for the most part, but I do want to branch out to suneate and dou. The hard part is making it affordable for people; I have to in essence work in accordance with the prices already set by Chinese factories. For your average person that is not a wealthy collector but rather a reenactor or martial artist, even a $3-5000 suit from China is a huge, huge investment. Charging more than that is a huge turn off. At the same time, the wealthy collectors won't have any interest in my work for a whole host of reasons. So, I'm trying to develop things that are as traditional as possible (some materials are extremely difficult to come by; for example I am having to use certain local substitutes for fusube-gawa), while still being something affordable to the kind of person that actually wants to use it. It's a tough niche to fill... The worst aspect of it is the tastes of the public have been shifted by the modern production line armor. In many cases your average person actually prefers the look of that to the real thing. I can't tell you how many people in this range of customers actually think of urushi as a negative thing, being convinced it's a poisonous substance and that the paint is actually superior... I could write a whole book about all of this but it'd bore everyone to tears.

The other issue is being approached by people with very, very ill intentions. In one case, I had someone demanding me give over all of my technical specs and knowledge on matchlocks for his company to reproduce them in India. I asked, will they be doing this at all traditionally? Will there be any effort made to actually help revive Japanese gunsmithing? Will you use oak and urushi for the stocks? etc. etc. Of course it was a flat out no. They lauged at the idea of that. Then they went on to tell me they wanted it all for free, and accused me of gatekeeping by setting exorbitant prices for my matchlocks. The reality of it is I'm charging a laughably low price for them, but nonetheless they accused me of setting the price at five times of what I actually was. It turned into some bizarre social justice thing where I owed it to them so they could undercut me and make non-traditional  matchlocks for a price just below mine. Needless to say I gave them an earful. They then offered to buy one from me to copy, and of course by that point in the conversation I couldn't take them seriously.

Another time I was approached by a collector who wanted a replacement nose for a menpo. I have a rule that I make all of my projects more or less public, trying to show each stage so people know exactly what they are getting from me. I don't hide anything. I told this collector first and foremost that I don't do any "secret" restoration work for people. I also firmly believe in mismatching replacement parts in terms of finish. Not overly so, but enough that it is apparent it is a replacement part, and cannot easily be made to appear original so as to scam people. To be extra safe, I add secret marks to my stuff only I know about in case a situation ever comes up. This collector wanted me to make a tengu nose for this menpo; immediately my radar was going off. There was of course no evidence this particular menpo ever originally had one. When I told him my above stipulations of mismatching and also making my work public, he bargained at first, and then when I didn't budge he cut the conversation.

It's easy to get worn down with all of this because you have more things working against you than for you. Trying to be an honest person in this world punishes you more often than not.

This is one of the reasons the the public, or collectors should be educated on the differences between that chinese garbage and the real thing. One advantage is that authentic armor makers have is the skills to produce a very good original from scratch. Those press companies make stuff from forms that they have kata for. It actually takes a lot of time to do a kata for a complete armor by scratch.  Especially when you dont know what you are doing. They work for the mass produced market who knows nothing.  They really dont make enough profit for it to be worthwhile in my opinion. A traditional armor maker should sell themselves on using authentic materials, and being able to make something in the right style. Something that is good enough to pass for the real thing...... Because thats what it is supposed to be:  the real thing. Otherwise its the fake crap.  In my own case, I choose my work and my clients. All of my work is kept confidential. Knowing my own work is good enough for me. I have never sold my own work as being real. As a matter of fact all my own work was pre-order.  Regardless of whether or not it is the intention of your client to sell your stuff as real, or keep it and love it, you should keep it confidential. Its really nobody else's business except the two people doing the transaction. Whether or not they pay for your services (which should always be your best work) should be the only thing that you are concerned with.  Check your morals at the door because they are not relevant in my opinion.   I used to do a lot of work for Japanese members of the Japanese armor society. Then I found out they were profiting more from my work than I was.  So I try to work for people who want my work because they want my work or work directly for people who put all the money from my work in my hands. 

 

Conculsion: Work=Money= use of skills=being able to survive off your work= preservation of living culture.  Moral virtue is irrelevant.  What is relevant is when artisans are ripped off by their customers. Just my opinion.

 

One thing that everybody should come to realize is that copies and replicas of Japanese samurai art has been produced from time in memory.  Hundreds of years later and many of the Muromachi period and edo period replicas have become Kamakura period pieces.  If you know what you are doing, you can tell though. And I have tested my theories many many times using various technologies.  But you have to try to strive to that level of perfection to be able to understand those imperfections. One of my shokunin friends told me that it is the goal of every artisan to do a replica so good that they themselves cannot recognize their own work.  If you can do that, then you have come of age.  I think that one of the reasons that there is a lot of badmouthing of people who are very skilled is because the people doing the badmouthing dont know enough to be able to detect their work and it scares them.   Another reason that artisans should be employed as specialists.....

 

Id like to make one last point about kozane armor such as O-yoroi Haramaki, etc.  They are technically much easier than tosei dou.  I am not putting down manufacturers of o-yoroi and haramaki but Please understand that they relatively less skill, albeit a great amount of time to produce. This is why so many of the lay-craftsmen focus on those types of armor.  (in my opinion)  For those armor most of the beauty appears in the kanamono. which are usually cast of common forms, rather than made originally. And the kozane are usually machine cut. ...   

[Miura]

50 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Can I perhaps give  a different perspective? 

I guess you would categorise me as an ex lay craftsman, although the semantics are totally irrelevant.  I have never been to Japan, never served any apprenticeship but am totally self taught through trial and error. Please understand that I have never been involved in restoring swords or armour. I am not a creative artist but for 30 or so years I was a part time restorer of netsuke, shibayama (on ivory and gold lacquer) and okimono (wood and ivory).

 

My income  came from other sources but I do not believe my work ever created problems for the “professionals”…..because there are hardly any professionals anyway and the very few that do exist have a long waiting list for their skills….and rightly charge a professionals fee. 

 

What follows is heavily condensed.

 

Whilst dealing  in Meiji Art (metalwork, shibayama, cloisonné, ceramics, okimono etc) it struck me how  comparatively  inexpensive damaged shibayama, okimono and netsuke etc were. The difference in price between perfect and damaged was massive. I am talking about the very top quality pieces. It isn’t worth restoring low quality imo. 

 

This type of object -

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/24152/lot/295/a-magnificent-pair-of-gold-lacquer-and-inlaid-shibayama-vases-with-en-suite-stands-by-shibayama-yasumasa-meiji-era-1868-1912-late-19th-century-4/

 

 

So, as an experiment I decided to see if I could restore a few items. If a human made it in the first place then in theory a human could make it again.
 

To cut a long story short I discovered that I had a natural talent for carving which improved quickly. I set up up a workshop with precision high speed dentist type drills and cutters , polishers, miniature diamond wheel cutters and very many precision hand tools. I worked only with old original materials…..numerous varieties of mother of pearl and abalone, assorted woods and where needed I used damaged antique ivory etc. 

 

Again to cut a long story short I ended up working (again as a time consuming hobby) for several of the worlds top dealers in such objects. Using modern methods but the correct materials I could cast missing inlay pieces using dental moulding, transfer over onto the correct raw material and recarve to fit exactly using modern tooling in a very small fraction of the time it would have taken the original artist. To cut a mother of pearl flower to precisely fit its empty slot would take me minutes (excluding all detailed finishing work) The end result was indistinguishable from the original because there was no difference except for it’s age. The only thing I couldn’t do was faces (and hands did take a long time!) I learned many secrets, or rather I re-discovered many secrets that must have been used by the original Meiji craftsmen. 
 

Over the  course of those many years I restored many hundreds of objects in total worth a large fortune. It gave me an immense feeling of satisfaction and pride. Despite the stakes being very high regarding mishaps (it’s nerve shredding holding a £10k gold lacquer inro in one hand while you clean out the old glue using a 0.5mm cutter in the other) I enjoyed it all hugely. 
 

Much of my efforts were expended in correcting the work of so called professionals who cut corners in order to maximise income. I developed an intimate understanding of the objects and how they were originally made. There was a huge amount of delicate hand finishing ….carving and polishing etc. Yes I used modern glues so the inlay wouldn’t fall out and get lost again!

 

It never bothered me that my clients did very well as a result of my efforts. That’s how they make their living. The important thing was that the objects, once sad and often heavily damaged, lived again in pristine condition in prestige collections and even museums. That is the only important thing as far as I am concerned.

 

I could say a lot more about Miura’s opinions and sweeping statements which are  often highly assumptive and condescending, but I won’t.

…..and being “cool” has nothing to do with it. 
 

Fire away. Colin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont do netsuke, vases, etc. I do armor, koshirae, things that require real urushi work and materials that are period correct for armor and koshirae, and I am not aware of the lack of workers, in your field, or the necessity for work in that field. Im not sure if there are any masters at what you do, but if there were, the years of trial and error and the mistakes you made may have been averted before you made them.  And there might be something passed on to you from a thousand years or so of history.   So unfortunately I will have to say I am sorry but I cannot draw the comparison between your field of expertise and mine.  I do know that there is a huge demand for restoration in my field. Unfortunately many of the people who pay ridiculous amounts for broken pieces, refuse to pay a skilled restorer a decent wage.  So they pay unqualified craftsmen less. And get what they pay for. I dont need any more work. Im just saying that to keep the true living tradition alive, you really need to hire trained professionals who are good at what they do.  That preserves and protects the living culture.

 

Those of you who do not live in Japan are perhaps unaware of the current samurai armor boom. Yes, there are a lot of people who create armor out of various materials etc. because it is cool. Its a gateway drug to bad restoration because many of the people doing bad restoration started there. Arthur mentioned Marutake indirectly, they also used to do restoration services. It was so bad. I got a lot of their cases because they said they were armor restorers.... people believed them.... they ruined the item. Individuals dont even know the difference between Urushi and cashew.  I was at the dai token ichi a few years ago and I picked up a koshirae and said you use cashew?  and he said no, its urushi, I said not its not. He said it is, that what it said on the can. I said urushi doesnt come in cans.  "cashew Urushi" is not a natural polymer. Totally different.  Anyway, even a little proper training would help.

[Miura]

39 minutes ago, uwe said:

 

....not exactly what I meant, Andy!

Rather more what Colin was trying to say. There are indeed people out there (hobbyists and layman) trying seriously to preserve and rescue....

 

 

Yes yes. I know. Your point was well taken.  There are also people who try seriously to put out a fire with gasoline.  Ill post a new thread shortly to give an example.

[Matsunoki]

On 4/8/2023 at 6:16 PM, Miura said:

.   I have worked in several fields of Japanese traditional art, not only Armor making.  Due to the popularity and prevalence of lay-craftsmen and the promotion and acceptance of inferior work, customers frequently go with the cheaper, faster, lower quality version of the traditional art. Lay-craftsmen who use non-traditional and inferior techniques tend to promote their craft as “same” or “as good as”, when this is not the case. 

In view of the above statement it sounded as if your views applied to any/all “lay craftsmen” in any Japanese art form and I found that very offensive. If that is not the case and your views relate solely to armour then fair enough. In my subject  the truly unbelievable skills involved during the Meiji period have already mostly been lost….even in Japan. 

All human “activities” are subject to the same simple economic laws such as supply and demand. There will always be large market sectors that cannot afford the finest or the genuine or the traditional. They may not even want items of that quality. That means there will always be suppliers willing to service that “lower sector” be it by manufacturing or restoring. There is nothing wrong with that provided good things are not ruined in the process.

Beyond that the principle of caveat emptor is relevant.

Without knowing you I applaud you for your expertise and passion, indeed I share the passion for the preservation of traditional skills.

However I also believe in “live and let live”. Nothing stays the same no matter how much we desire it. Some things get better, some get worse….that’s life.

[Samurai Art]

Andrew, aka Miura anjin,
I have been following your essays over the past few weeks. I am not sure, but you seem to be coming over as someone who is the self-proclaimed messiah of Kachu. You have studied under a katchushi, and he was very talented, but you are making questionable claims with no proof of transmission of title; it is very well known in Japan that you never completed your apprenticeship and broke contact with your teacher in his final years. You were excluded from his last exhibition, none of his tools, works or references were passed to you, and you were not invited to his funeral by his familiy. That should raise alarm bells; you can say anything now that he has died.

What is your real motive here? You are running down everyone, from hobbyists to bonified associations, everyone is wrong, but you are right. 

So I ask you, where is your body of work?

Where are your photographs of the armours you have made? Of course, you have nothing because your pretence of the client is confidential and you will hide behind it. All the other craftspeople post photographs and provide insight into their crafts openly on social media. But you hide yours?
If you work part-time in the coffee shop (yoroi cafe) and restore armor, you are a lay-craftsman. When you posted, you told us you live as an artisan. Arthur is doing just that as he works full-time on his projects and is not restoring. I see many contradictions in what you write and many errors. 

I urge anyone to take what you say here with a pinch of salt. 

I'm calling you a fraud.

[Brian]

Mr Thatcher,
Considering the drama currently going on around Japanese Armour and the armour community (Thank heavens I am only into swords and fittings!) I guess I owe you the right of reply. In spite of the things you have said about me, and the forum...I am not one to allow one side of things. So you 2 can hash it out a bit, until the inevitable lock of this thread and topic. I dread waking in the morning to see the outcome of this, but get it out of your systems so that the rest of us can carry on with what we try to do here.
Skip the part about "this isn't Dave" as the forum has some particularly effective detection software. The end result is that you made statements above, and if I remove them then I am guilty of censorship which I hate. So I'll grant Andy his right of reply too...and you 2 can have your duel before I close this matter.
If this rapidly gets ugly, it will be gone early tomorrow. If you 2 can make your points without getting personal and nasty, then maybe both sides can state their case. I have little hope of that, but let's see who stumbles first.
Both of you, at least make an effort.

Brian

[Samurai Art]

6 minutes ago, Brian said:

Mr Thatcher,
Considering the drama currently going on around Japanese Armour and the armour community (Thank heavens I am only into swords and fittings!) I guess I owe you the right of reply. In spite of the things you have said about me, and the forum...I am not one to allow one side of things. So you 2 can hash it out a bit, until the inevitable lock of this thread and topic. I dread waking in the morning to see the outcome of this, but get it out of your systems so that the rest of us can carry on with what we try to do here.
Skip the part about "this isn't Dave" as the forum has some particularly effective detection software. The end result is that you made statements above, and if I remove them then I am guilty of censorship which I hate. So I'll grant Andy his right of reply too...and you 2 can have your duel before I close this matter.
If this rapidly gets ugly, it will be gone early tomorrow. If you 2 can make your points without getting personal and nasty, then maybe both sides can state their case. I have little hope of that, but let's see who stumbles first.
Both of you, at least make an effort.

Brian

Brian,
Your forum should not be where anyone can air their dirty washing. You have stated that many times. Maybe your tolerance has been swayed by a personal dislike, that's completely understandable. These squabbles are non-productive and serve no purpose. It's far better that the community is served with edible content that will not make them vomit. Over the past few weeks, you have allowed Andy to make some very questionable claims. He's actually attacking everyone; his remarks are aimed at Markus Sesko, Katsu Toyoda, the Japanese Armour Society, the NTBTHK, its everyone.  Read his posts, and the arrogance of what he is preaching will spill over. Not everyone can make it to Japan to learn the arts, many try to do it on their own, an I welcome this. I was a restorer for years until I retired in 2021. I used the term katchushi because it was made popular by Soanes in the West. I have never been a katchushi; I was a Gusoku-shi. I fixed and repaired and assembled armour. I studied urushi under a Japanese teacher and learned the rest over years of hard work. 

Andy signed a blood oath to become the deshi (or at least that s what he tells others). Miura sensei was an amazing man with an amazing portfolio of work that has earned most people's respect. I actually don't like what Andy is saying because I find it damaging to his teacher's name. So let's ask Andy to produce the letter of transmission where the name miura was officially granted to him to use as his official artist name.  He continues to swerve and fail to observe the law on the ownership of the KNKBSK; where is he informing the members that he owns something that he doesn't. That is very misleading and illegal, and when he sells his first counterfeit certificate, the police will pay him a visit. The KNKBSK is not a shinsa service; rather, it is a body to provide appraisals on a white-label basis for dealers that do not want David Thatcher written on their certificate, as that would be seen as a conflict of interest. No certs are issued to members of the public; the body is very small, with a few EU-based dealers. It is no competition for the JAS. Andy provided a service which has been terminated, he has ignored a C&D to destroy the now-discontinued paperwork. On your forum, he openly states that the TM are his own, they are not and the TM covers Japan. I would not like to see your forum used to promote or drive business to Andy where he would be taking peoples money illegally and issuing certification that is nothing more than worthless fakes. 

I'm not here to defend my name; I don't care what anyone says to be honest, as I just want to be independent of forums and the hassle and politics they create. I'm here to ask you to be careful about what you allow. Some of the younger members are very open to believing what they read and these posts of late are somewhat of a deluded fantasy.

Andy will no doubt respond, nothing will hold any water, he only writes babble that can never be evidenced.
I have stated my case Brian, and I won't post again unless a member (other than Andy) would like to know more about the KNKBSK.
 

[Luc T]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Mr Thatcher,
Considering the drama currently going on around Japanese Armour and the armour community (Thank heavens I am only into swords and fittings!) 

Brian

It’s not that bad to be in armor Brian, on the contrary!  Me and a lot of other people love their beauty every day.

And that’s what it is all about.   

[Samurai Art]

2 minutes ago, Luc T said:

It’s not that bad to be in armor Brian, on the contrary!  Me and a lot of other people love their beauty every day.

And that’s what it is all about.   

I totally agree; maybe all parties can work together to achieve this. Put an end to the backstabbing. The negativity is only down to personal agenda; it dirties and distorts the subject we love.

Since I retired, I have promoted katchu on social media, with over 40,000 people on the platforms. I am working on a series of books on the subject that I publish for free to educate others using my limited knowledge of the subject. I like the JAS yearbooks and have all of them. There is room for everyone, and I request that you cease your campaign against me. 
 

[Miura]

8 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

In view of the above statement it sounded as if your views applied to any/all “lay craftsmen” in any Japanese art form and I found that very offensive. If that is not the case and your views relate solely to armour then fair enough. In my subject  the truly unbelievable skills involved during the Meiji period have already mostly been lost….even in Japan. 

All human “activities” are subject to the same simple economic laws such as supply and demand. There will always be large market sectors that cannot afford the finest or the genuine or the traditional. They may not even want items of that quality. That means there will always be suppliers willing to service that “lower sector” be it by manufacturing or restoring. There is nothing wrong with that provided good things are not ruined in the process.

Beyond that the principle of caveat emptor is relevant.

Without knowing you I applaud you for your expertise and passion, indeed I share the passion for the preservation of traditional skills.

However I also believe in “live and let live”. Nothing stays the same no matter how much we desire it. Some things get better, some get worse….that’s life.

Exactly. 
Sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I do agree with you  actually. Im more talking about the arts themselves and the way of life rather than the restorations thereof.  Basically the living culture.  Armor is a bit different than other arts when it comes to restoration, the makers tend to be the most qualified  people to do the restorations because it frequently does require replication of a nose or a missing ear or urushi that has the same colors or flexible properties if its a patch lets say. That kind of knowledge is best learned from a master in my opinion. And it helps to preserve the culture and structure supporting it.  Over the years i have received so much second hand work that had been previously destroyed by people with good intentions and little or no experience.  Once epoxy or non-urushi base has been applied, forget about using urushi without undoing it. 

[Miura]

22 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

Andrew, aka Miura anjin,
I have been following your essays over the past few weeks. I am not sure, but you seem to be coming over as someone who is the self-proclaimed messiah of Kachu. You have studied under a katchushi, and he was very talented, but you are making questionable claims with no proof of transmission of title; it is very well known in Japan that you never completed your apprenticeship and broke contact with your teacher in his final years. You were excluded from his last exhibition, none of his tools, works or references were passed to you, and you were not invited to his funeral by his familiy. That should raise alarm bells; you can say anything now that he has died.

What is your real motive here? You are running down everyone, from hobbyists to bonified associations, everyone is wrong, but you are right. 

So I ask you, where is your body of work?

Where are your photographs of the armours you have made? Of course, you have nothing because your pretence of the client is confidential and you will hide behind it. All the other craftspeople post photographs and provide insight into their crafts openly on social media. But you hide yours?
If you work part-time in the coffee shop (yoroi cafe) and restore armor, you are a lay-craftsman. When you posted, you told us you live as an artisan. Arthur is doing just that as he works full-time on his projects and is not restoring. I see many contradictions in what you write and many errors. 

I urge anyone to take what you say here with a pinch of salt. 

I'm calling you a fraud.

Mr. Thatcher!  Is that you?  In response to your defamation. (which will be dealt with elsewhere)

 

Dave Thatcher Wrote:  I have been following your essays over the past few weeks. I am not sure, but you seem to be coming over as someone who is the self-proclaimed messiah of Kachu.

1. When did I proclaim my self to be a messiah?  I am what I am:  A traditionally trained armor maker with a lot of experience under my belt. What are you?

 

Dave Thatcher Wrote: You have studied under a katchushi, and he was very talented, but you are making questionable claims with no proof of transmission of title; it is very well known in Japan that you never completed your apprenticeship and broke contact with your teacher in his final years.

2.  Mr. Thatcher. Resorting to lying and defamation yet again?  There are multiple records of me being named as atotsugi. Most recently in the famous national Television show "Wafu So Honke" where not only does Miura sensei name me as his atotsugi, he said that he sees me as a colleague. He also gave me a hand written "graduation" note years ago.  All good hard evidence yet again that would stand up in a court of law.  Please. Why you would say such preposterous things I can only imagine. But Im happy you did because your true character is beginning to emerge.  There is a Japanese saying "Boketsu wo hotteiru" .... digging your own grave.

 

Dave Thatcher wrote: You were excluded from his last exhibition, none of his tools, works or references were passed to you, and you were not invited to his funeral by his familiy. That should raise alarm bells; you can say anything now that he has died.

3.  Mr. Thatcher, you really know nothing of my relationship with my teacher and nothing about me.  And what you are writing is despicable.   I spoke with his son who I think very highly of after his passing. There was no funeral as it was the height of covid. They didnt even get to see the body before cremation.  That didn't stop you from doing the uncouth deal of posting the notification of his death, to try to raise yourself up. And when I told you that he passed away it was not to be announced to the world. By Japanese custom you are supposed to wait 45 days to do such things. Im sure the family would not be happy if they knew what you did.  I wanted my eulogy to be put on the society website once the time had passed..... Unfortunately we made the great error of letting you be the administrator of the website, and you blocked any free publications and things that I wanted to do with the organization.   Anyway, several of your lies are exposed in your previous facebook listing: 

 

 

 

Dave Thatcher wrote: What is your real motive here? You are running down everyone, from hobbyists to bonified associations, everyone is wrong, but you are right. j

4.  My motivation is to inform people from my perspective. Do you feel threatened? Why? Im not running anybody down. I think Very highly of the people in all the associations. I have expressed sorrow for my teacher being used to bolster other peoples esteem such as yours (when it befits you) and left out of his live when I was a very intricate part of his life and we had many stories and adventures together.   The fact that I was left out of certain things probably happened due to ignorance and political pressure put on him due to people who were jealous of me for whatever the reason.

 

Dave Thatcher wrote: So I ask you, where is your body of work?

5. For the clients I did the work for. I live off of my work because I am a real artisan. So I take commissions and sell my work when it is done. That is what artisans do.  I do have a lot of my work in world famous collections and museums however. Where is yours? 

 

Dave Thatcher Wrote:  Where are your photographs of the armors you have made? Of course, you have nothing because your pretence of the client is confidential and you will hide behind it. All the other craftspeople post photographs and provide insight into their crafts openly on social media. But you hide yours?

6.  Photographs?  Why? I would only show my work to my clients and sometimes people qualified to judge it?  I dont need to brag about my work.   Yes. Craftspeople. Not artisans, though there are some online teachers who post their work for educational purposes. I don't, because I would only teach my students first hand. Its just my philosophy.

 

Dave Thatcher Wrote: If you work part-time in the coffee shop (yoroi cafe) and restore armor, you are a lay-craftsman. When you posted, you told us you live as an artisan. Arthur is doing just that as he works full-time on his projects and is not restoring. I see many contradictions in what you write and many errors. 

7. You have no idea as to the structure of the gallery/cafe/library.  That and the fact that I work 19 hours a day every day. I love what I do. And recently I am here on the nihonto message board before my last shift, Im sure brian can attest that Im writing my blogs and signing in here at 1:00 am - 4:00 am. in the morning sometimes before I do the last coat of urushi.  Arthur has been very honest in what he is doing. Why are you bringing him into this?  He is striving to be an artisan and I respect him greatly for that. Please don't be jealous of him. Re; Contradictions and errors- first read my disclaimer. Then read it again. Then go back, read the article, and figure out where you fit in the big picture of things, debate the contradictions and errors. But please stop with the defamation and lies. 

 

Dave Thatcher Wrote: I urge anyone to take what you say here with a pinch of salt. 
8.  I would urge anybody reading until now to take this thread with a shot of brandy and laugh at how ridiculous this is. I actually feel like I am lowering myself by answering all the defamatory things that have been said about me by acknowledging this guy's existence.  But I will for the record.

 

 

Dave Thatcher Wrote:  I'm calling you a fraud.

9.  "FRAUD"..... funny you should call somebody else that. Mr. Thatcher, you have said some very terrible things about a lot of people.  People who helped you out when you needed them.   Are you projecting?  I will warn you now that further defamatory comments will likely result in discrediting yourself further. Please stop. 

 

[Arthur G]

Well, that definitely clears up any doubts I had about you Andy. All of that is easily provable, and it's concise. 

Admittedly I had heard these rumors in circulation around the community before, and always wondered what the truth of it was; but now I clearly can pinpoint the source of them after seeing this interaction. Very few people know Dave's character as well as I do; in fact I would say I'm somewhat of an authority on it along with a few others.

As an outside observer familiar with aspects of the situation, it's quite clear to me now what has happened here and behind the scenes. I must apologize for how I may have viewed you in the past before this due to your associations with Mr. Thatcher, but I see now you're just another victim like many others. The style of accusatory public defamation is quite familiar.

You tell him to "please stop", but no, I'd like him to keep talking. I think it's best if the community sees him as he is, in his own words; there's nothing I could say about the man that would compare to how he carries himself.

[Miura]

21 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

Brian,
Your forum should not be where anyone can air their dirty washing. You have stated that many times. Maybe your tolerance has been swayed by a personal dislike, that's completely understandable. These squabbles are non-productive and serve no purpose. It's far better that the community is served with edible content that will not make them vomit. Over the past few weeks, you have allowed Andy to make some very questionable claims. He's actually attacking everyone; his remarks are aimed at Markus Sesko, Katsu Toyoda, the Japanese Armour Society, the NTBTHK, its everyone.  Read his posts, and the arrogance of what he is preaching will spill over. Not everyone can make it to Japan to learn the arts, many try to do it on their own, an I welcome this. I was a restorer for years until I retired in 2021. I used the term katchushi because it was made popular by Soanes in the West. I have never been a katchushi; I was a Gusoku-shi. I studied urushi under a Japanese teacher and learned the rest over years of hard work. 

Andy signed a blood oath to become the deshi (or at least that s what he tells others). Miura sensei was an amazing man with an amazing portfolio of work that has earned most people's respect. I actually don't like what Andy is saying because I find it damaging to his teacher's nameI fixed and repaired and assembled armour.. So let's ask Andy to produce the letter of transmission where the name miura was officially granted to him to use as his official artist name.  He continues to swerve and fail to observe the law on the ownership of the KNKBSK; where is he informing the members that he owns something that he doesn't. That is very misleading and illegal, and when he sells his first counterfeit certificate, the police will pay him a visit. The KNKBSK is not a shinsa service; rather, it is a body to provide appraisals on a white-label basis for dealers that do not want David Thatcher written on their certificate, as that would be seen as a conflict of interest. No certs are issued to members of the public; the body is very small, with a few EU-based dealers. It is no competition for the JAS. Andy provided a service which has been terminated, he has ignored a C&D to destroy the now-discontinued paperwork. On your forum, he openly states that the TM are his own, they are not and the TM covers Japan. I would not like to see your forum used to promote or drive business to Andy where he would be taking peoples money illegally and issuing certification that is nothing more than worthless fakes. 

I'm not here to defend my name; I don't care what anyone says to be honest, as I just want to be independent of forums and the hassle and politics they create. I'm here to ask you to be careful about what you allow. Some of the younger members are very open to believing what they read and these posts of late are somewhat of a deluded fantasy.

Andy will no doubt respond, nothing will hold any water, he only writes babble that can never be evidenced.
I have stated my case Brian, and I won't post again unless a member (other than Andy) would like to know more about the KNKBSK.

Dave thatcher wrote: Your forum should not be where anyone can air their dirty washing. You have stated that many times. Maybe your tolerance has been swayed by a personal dislike, that's completely understandable. These squabbles are non-productive and serve no purpose. It's far better that the community is served with edible content that will not make them vomit.

1. There was no dirty washing. Why are you Squabbling? There was some debate until you came along and threw dirt in the washer by defaming people under a fake account.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: Over the past few weeks, you have allowed Andy to make some very questionable claims.

2. Its a forum. You can debate the claims. But debate MY claims not your own claims about what I said.  

 

Dave thatcher wrote: He's actually attacking everyone; his remarks are aimed at Markus Sesko, Katsu Toyoda, the Japanese Armour Society, the NTBTHK, its everyone. 

3. I dont even know some of the people you said I am attacking. I am not attacking anybody. At least I dont see it that way.  I actually really like most of the people I have met with interest in Japanese art, archeolgoy, history. 

 

Dave thatcher wrote: Read his posts, and the arrogance of what he is preaching will spill over. Not everyone can make it to Japan to learn the arts, many try to do it on their own, an I welcome this.

4. People who know me. (and Dave Thatcher does not know me) would not say I am arrogant.  I have not been on social media for 15 years. I have kept to myself.  But I can see how you feel threatened when I came back on the scene. I was from poor stock. I found a way to get to Japan on my own. You just have to work hard. Although I originally didnt have the intention of being an armor maker. You should stop making it out to be so difficult Dave. Its just about hard work and trust (introductions) 

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I was a restorer for years until I retired in 2021.

5. Maybe some of the users can post photos of your work so people can judge for themselves.  We are well aware that you are not retired from what you do.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I used the term katchushi because it was made popular by Soanes in the West.

6. I think you of all people should stop saying things about Mr. Soanes.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I have never been a katchushi; I was a Gusoku-shi.

7. Earlier you claimed that I was not a katchu Shi because I never finished an apprenticeship with my teacher, yet you said that Andrew Mancabelli of Miura Anjin Kobo bestowed the title of "Gusoku Shi" to you on your facebook page..... how does that work?  I never gave you any title.  Did you make it up for yourself? 

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I fixed and repaired and assembled armour.

8. No comment.  Regarding assembling armor. Yes I agree.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I studied urushi under a Japanese teacher and learned the rest over years of hard work. 

9. What program and how long?  Do you still use urushi now?

 

Dave thatcher wrote: Andy signed a blood oath to become the deshi (or at least that s what he tells others).

10.  Really? Who did I tell this to? Its already been established that you dont always tell the truth or change your story depending on how it benefits your purpose.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: Miura sensei was an amazing man with an amazing portfolio of work that has earned most people's respect.

11. Really? What do you know of his work? Whats your favourite?  The one you saw on one of my TV programs? Stop using other people to boost your ego.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I actually don't like what Andy is saying because I find it damaging to his teacher's nameI fixed and repaired and assembled armour..

12. The sentence doesnt make sense. However, it is you who is doing the defaming here. If you had a teacher it would reflect poorly on them.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: He continues to swerve and fail to observe the law on the ownership of the KNKBSK; where is he informing the members that he owns something that he doesn't.

13. See below:

 

 

 

 

 

I still dont understand the logic and reasoning for the numbers above, but it would be really nice if I saw any of that money. The most important part to note is Dave's acknowledgement to having zero financial investment, and release of any ownership interest to me. I even tried to get him to reconsider. He declined. In retrospect it was a godsend.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: That is very misleading and illegal, and when he sells his first counterfeit certificate, the police will pay him a visit.

14.   Counterfeit?  We do a service and produce certificates of authenticity here in Japan.  It would be very funny if you defrauded the police. What you are saying here is misleading people.  And its sad.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: The KNKBSK is not a shinsa service; rather, it is a body to provide appraisals on a white-label basis for dealers that do not want David Thatcher written on their certificate, as that would be seen as a conflict of interest.

15. Translation:  1 man shinsa hiding behind a name he ripped off from a legitimate organization he quit.   (see resignation above)

 

Dave thatcher wrote: No certs are issued to members of the public; the body is very small, with a few EU-based dealers. It is no competition for the JAS.

16.  How many person or people is the Dave thatcher white-label society shinsa?  You like to name names. Why not share the members names with the rest of us? I never wanted to "compete" with the JAS, but you used the society to attack and make people think we backed your silly arguments.  Why would you create an organization with the exact same name as the one you quit?  Unless you wanted to ride off the reputations of the good people who make the organization legitimate. Just change your name and logo Dave. Be original. 

 

Dave thatcher wrote: Andy provided a service which has been terminated, he has ignored a C&D to destroy the now-discontinued paperwork.

17. The record is clear. We are not terminated. Active and been going since 2020. The Dave thatcher white-label society active since 2022.  However, you have been asked more than once to cease and desist the imitation of our organization.  Why would I destroy the intellectual property that Miura Anjin owns?  I dont think my accountant would like that.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: On your forum, he openly states that the TM are his own, they are not and the TM covers Japan.

18. First of all I did not state that the trademark is my own. It belongs to the organization though I paid for the creation of the intellectual property - receipts to prove it.  If you think you are in the right, please sue me and see what happens. There is a mountain of very clear evidence against your claims including witness testimony.

 

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I would not like to see your forum used to promote or drive business to Andy where he would be taking peoples money illegally and issuing certification that is nothing more than worthless fakes. 

19. See resignation letter and release of ownership above. I dont ask the forum to promote our organization. However, if you want some free information and participate for free on our journeys to esoteric shrines in far off places, join. You might have fun. If you need a well done certificate of authenticity, we will be happy to make one.  Our facebook will be up soon.  Actually, the best promotion we have been getting is from Dave Thatcher driving people our way.  Call them fakes or whatever, just the production cost of one Juyo level paper costs us around 20,000 yen.   The paper itself is not worthless as its hand made washi pressed with gold, countersealed written completely by a professional calligrapher. Each is a work of art in and of itself.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I'm not here to defend my name; I don't care what anyone says to be honest, as I just want to be independent of forums and the hassle and politics they create.

20.  Then why are you here except to defame me?  You have not been mentioned at all in any forums by me unless your proxies or fake IDs mention you.  You have lied and defamed me on facebook, and now here.   Again, the biggest mistake of my life was trusting Dave Thatcher.

 

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I'm here to ask you to be careful about what you allow. Some of the younger members are very open to believing what they read and these posts of late are somewhat of a deluded fantasy.

21.  I agree. People should be careful. I am talking with some of the younger members now who you lied to and told them that they could never be an artisan because they were none left to teach them or its too hard.  The Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko Kyokai of Japan will try to put aspiring young artists in to contact with an artisan. Of course we would have to screen them first to make sure they are prepared and qualified.

 

 

Dave thatcher wrote: Andy will no doubt respond, nothing will hold any water, he only writes babble that can never be evidenced.

22.  I think its funny that you imply that I will be producing some sort of evidence.  You must know that there is some very very clear evidence of what happened between you and me, and you and the organization as well as other parties. More keeps coming in every day.  I suggest that you stop while you can.

 

Dave thatcher wrote: I have stated my case Brian, and I won't post again unless a member (other than Andy) would like to know more about the KNKBSK.

23.  Good.  I think thats a great idea.   Hopefully if people want to know about the Kokusai Nihon Katchu Bugu Shinko KyoKai  which is in Japan, people will contact me.  Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Miura]

22 hours ago, MIFUNE said:

I totally agree; maybe all parties can work together to achieve this. Put an end to the backstabbing. The negativity is only down to personal agenda; it dirties and distorts the subject we love.

Since I retired, I have promoted katchu on social media, with over 40,000 people on the platforms. I am working on a series of books on the subject that I publish for free to educate others using my limited knowledge of the subject. I like the JAS yearbooks and have all of them. There is room for everyone, and I request that you cease your campaign against me. 
 

Dave Thatcher Wrote: Since I retired, I have promoted katchu on social media, with over 40,000 people on the platforms.

1. You aren't retired. But its good to know how many people you influence and its stated here. It will help to estimate how many people have been influenced by your defamatory statements towards me.

 

I am working on a series of books on the subject that I publish for free to educate others using my limited knowledge of the subject.

2. I would hope that you would have more than limited knowledge before you start educating people and publishing books.  Start with some informative essays first, maybe some peer review.

 

There is room for everyone, and I request that you cease your campaign against me. 

3. Nobody is campaigning against you. However when you abuse social media, the internet, financial backers, email etc. to defame and threaten people, I for one wont stand for it. As a leader of a legitimate organization I will stand up for what is right and just, and protect those who you attack.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Miura]

23 hours ago, Luc T said:

It’s not that bad to be in armor Brian, on the contrary!  Me and a lot of other people love their beauty every day.

And that’s what it is all about.   

And I am one of those people Luc. Thanks for the support.  Brian Im thankful for the message board.  I have always hated drama myself. Unfortunately this day in age I cant stay holed up in my cave any more. Somebody poked a sleeping tiger.

[chris covington]

On 4/10/2023 at 11:15 AM, Matsunoki said:

Can I perhaps give  a different perspective? 

I guess you would categorise me as an ex lay craftsman, although the semantics are totally irrelevant.  I have never been to Japan, never served any apprenticeship but am totally self taught through trial and error. Please understand that I have never been involved in restoring swords or armour. I am not a creative artist but for 30 or so years I was a part time restorer of netsuke, shibayama (on ivory and gold lacquer) and okimono (wood and ivory).

 

My income  came from other sources but I do not believe my work ever created problems for the “professionals”…..because there are hardly any professionals anyway and the very few that do exist have a long waiting list for their skills….and rightly charge a professionals fee. 

 

What follows is heavily condensed.

 

Whilst dealing  in Meiji Art (metalwork, shibayama, cloisonné, ceramics, okimono etc) it struck me how  comparatively  inexpensive damaged shibayama, okimono and netsuke etc were. The difference in price between perfect and damaged was massive. I am talking about the very top quality pieces. It isn’t worth restoring low quality imo. 

 

This type of object -

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/24152/lot/295/a-magnificent-pair-of-gold-lacquer-and-inlaid-shibayama-vases-with-en-suite-stands-by-shibayama-yasumasa-meiji-era-1868-1912-late-19th-century-4/

 

 

So, as an experiment I decided to see if I could restore a few items. If a human made it in the first place then in theory a human could make it again.
 

To cut a long story short I discovered that I had a natural talent for carving which improved quickly. I set up up a workshop with precision high speed dentist type drills and cutters , polishers, miniature diamond wheel cutters and very many precision hand tools. I worked only with old original materials…..numerous varieties of mother of pearl and abalone, assorted woods and where needed I used damaged antique ivory etc. 

 

Again to cut a long story short I ended up working (again as a time consuming hobby) for several of the worlds top dealers in such objects. Using modern methods but the correct materials I could cast missing inlay pieces using dental moulding, transfer over onto the correct raw material and recarve to fit exactly using modern tooling in a very small fraction of the time it would have taken the original artist. To cut a mother of pearl flower to precisely fit its empty slot would take me minutes (excluding all detailed finishing work) The end result was indistinguishable from the original because there was no difference except for it’s age. The only thing I couldn’t do was faces (and hands did take a long time!) I learned many secrets, or rather I re-discovered many secrets that must have been used by the original Meiji craftsmen. 
 

Over the  course of those many years I restored many hundreds of objects in total worth a large fortune. It gave me an immense feeling of satisfaction and pride. Despite the stakes being very high regarding mishaps (it’s nerve shredding holding a £10k gold lacquer inro in one hand while you clean out the old glue using a 0.5mm cutter in the other) I enjoyed it all hugely. 
 

Much of my efforts were expended in correcting the work of so called professionals who cut corners in order to maximise income. I developed an intimate understanding of the objects and how they were originally made. There was a huge amount of delicate hand finishing ….carving and polishing etc. Yes I used modern glues so the inlay wouldn’t fall out and get lost again!

 

It never bothered me that my clients did very well as a result of my efforts. That’s how they make their living. The important thing was that the objects, once sad and often heavily damaged, lived again in pristine condition in prestige collections and even museums. That is the only important thing as far as I am concerned.

 

I could say a lot more about Miura’s opinions and sweeping statements which are  often highly assumptive and condescending, but I won’t.

…..and being “cool” has nothing to do with it. 
 

Fire away. Colin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Colin,

 

I wanted to address your post about untrained amateurs working on antiques. I realize this post went sideways, but I thought maybe this post would bring it back to the original topic.

 

Two Christmases ago my wife surprised me with a bit of armor, a dou and matching kabuto (the rest was lost to history, sold off for parts or whatever). In undergrad I focused on the Bakumatsu and this armor is from the very tail end of the Edo. It is an okashi gusoku from the Kaga Coastal Defense unit. I realize it isn’t the highest grade armor but the thoughtfulness of the gift makes it very special to me. 

 

Anyway, in my research I’ve found about 18 different suits of this pattern of armor in various levels of completeness (each suit has an armory number and I think the highest I’ve seen in 97). Some are lone helmets, others kabuto and dou like mine and a few complete suits. One, which sold at auction several years back, really struck my interest. I’ll call it the red helmet for the red shinobi-no-o.This was supposedly “expertly” repaired. Upon closer inspection you can see the hand was no expert, but a clear amateur. 

 

The other full helmet is mine. I found two images of two other helmets. I picked them, along with mine, because you can get in close to helmet and they are in similar positions so you can compare apples to apples. Look at the urushi on the red shinobi no o helmet. Look at the thickness, color, and “stucco” pattern in it. It is thick. It looks like chocolate cake frosting applied by a child. The red color is clearly trying to emulate the old red that often had mercury in it, and it falls short. The stucco like pattern is coarse and uneven. Compare that to the other three. There is a very bright red helmet, but even that has thinly applied urushi and the sabi pattern is even and fine. Of all the other armors I’ve seen in this type, they are the same thin and even (again, I picked the ones I did because the images where at a similar angle so it makes it a fairer comparison). The amateur who did the “repair” probably learned how to urushi chopsticks, bowls, and pens. Those are fine pursuits (a friend of mine learned to urushi that stuff while stationed in Japan) but not the same.

 

Those skills needed to urushi armor are not the same as chopsticks, bowls, and pens. There are dozens of youtube videos that can teach you the later. The former on the other hand is rare information (for good reason). I’m sure the amateur who “repaired” the red shinobi no o helmet thought he did a great job, but anyone with an eye for antiques can see it is a train wreck. The problem is, some poor guy paid a lot of money expecting “expert” restoration and got anything but. It might boarder on vandalism.

 

One thing I’ve noticed with certain segments of the armor community is they have more money than knowledge. They’ll buy some seriously suspect stuff on the word of auction houses, and take it at face value. But that is a topic for another day. 

 

Anyway, I hope your carving skill is better than that amateur urushi skill. 

 

Best regards,

Chris

[GN174]

Chris Covington looking at the original condition it looks like you saved that piece for history. I do still stand by my original point of view that these threads (Chris excluded) seem to serve limited positive outcomes for the study of Japanese armour. Unless people are enjoying the show to much could it be closed out and more study worthy topics promoted.  Brian is you dread waking up to post on this topic I assume easy for you to close under the TOXIC banner. 

[Brian]

Torn between the "let's all hug and ignore the bad side of the Japanese art world" and the desire to serve the community and present what is happening whether bad or good.
Personally, I think it's important to allow the good and the bad, so that people can make up their own minds. Without threads like this, people can go about their business blissfully unaware of the controversies out there.
I have personally treated some in the community with respect and looked up to them, only to find out later from big names, that these guys are known thieves, narcissists and generally shunned. This is regarding people who are not on the forum now...so don't jump to confusions.
But if we are going to truly represent this field, we have to take the good with the bad. Especially considering the huge sums of money at stake.

[Arthur G]

Quite the contrary Grey, it's incredibly important. There is much to learn from studying the work of different people in the community as well as their business practices.

I've learned many things about armor by studying people who are either poorly skilled restorers or create fakes; it helps me to better understand the original artisans and their mindsets as the fakers always make profound divergences from the original works without being aware of it. If you are not aware of those people in the community and their works, you'll develop a very bad eye for the real thing. At the end of the day, these things are all being made by people, not appearing out of the ether. It's just as important, in my opinion, to be familiar with the workers as their work. 

[Arthur G]

Thank you Brian.

I for one appreciate being allowed in here as a guest more than you know. I will try and keep what I say on a very technical and factual level, as there's no room for drama, emotion or hyperbole here. There are some severely concerning things going on behind the scenes that I think will truly shock some people once we get to that point in the conversation; I will also post some of my ways of spotting these poor restorations (and fakes), where I've seen them appear, and maybe even some case examples. Chris' example is one of the best I've seen.

Japan is my adopted culture, and I owe it to protect the material history and past of that culture through my studies and work. Poor restoration work and creating forgeries does not just hurt people's wallets or individual items; it slowly shifts people's perceptions of the past and the nature of these objects towards something they were never meant to be. It has a wider impact over time of warping cultural heritage. Further, is not a matter of tastes or opinions as some might argue here; there is the right way, and there is the wrong way. Either it has been restored to its original condition as close as is possible, or it has not.

Having a space to address this is much appreciated.

[chris covington]

2 hours ago, GN174 said:

Chris Covington looking at the original condition it looks like you saved that piece for history. I do still stand by my original point of view that these threads (Chris excluded) seem to serve limited positive outcomes for the study of Japanese armour. Unless people are enjoying the show to much could it be closed out and more study worthy topics promoted.  Brian is you dread waking up to post on this topic I assume easy for you to close under the TOXIC banner. 

Mine is the one with the blue shinobi-no-o on the stand. It is in pretty nice shape and I keep it in storage mostly to prevent UV damage since urushi is organic and degrades in the sun. I have a large head and it actually fits my fat dome. The suits of armors are fit to standard sizes: small, medium, and large. Mine is large. The dou almost fits (I need to drop an inch or two on the belly). It is rare for antique armor to fit a thick western body type, so it’s pretty cool. This isn’t daimyo grade armor, but the large number of extant examples really allows us to compare, particularly in the case of the one damaged by amateur restoration. And I think that is the point of the original post, right? We need to seek out *appropriately* trained repair people. Just because someone has a close skill doesn’t mean it is appropriate. That chocolate cake frosting urushi is like a sword polish from an amateur. To an untrained eye it might look fine, but to someone experienced it is all wrong. 

 

Chris

[uwe]

I think you can call it “tataki-nuri”, Chris!

[Matsunoki]

14 hours ago, chris covington said:

Hi Colin,

 

I wanted to address your post about untrained amateurs working on antiques. I realize this post went sideways, but I thought maybe this post would bring it back to the original topic.

Hi Chris

I think we have got ourselves a bit caught in the crossfire here! 

This topic would seem to be the tip of an armour iceberg with some rather serious implications and a hail of accusations flying back and forth.

I’m ducking out of this one.

a separate topic on the subject of “amateur restorers” is bound to generate a lot of “interest”……🙂🙂….feel free!

One thing I will say…. amateur just means they don’t earn their living doing it…..they could be just as good or even far better than the professionals…..or far worse of course.

But don’t mention amateur polishing if you want to keep your head on your shoulders!

Best wishes. Colin