Interesting Kantei

[Nihonto student]

Dear members,

 

I return to the kantei already expressed in this topic  https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/41845-oei-or-late-muromachi/?_fromLogout=1 where you can find photos and descriptions, because as often happens it seems to me that there are some pieces of the puzzle that don't fit together.
As already expressed in the previous topic, the blade has a JTK certificate which attributes it to the OEI period to a late generation of Omiya Morishige but as already said some things do not add up to me.
In my HUMBLE opinion it could be a Sukesada blade but also in this case some things do not seem to fit perfectly so I am going to express my considerations:

The blade has a sugata typical of the middle kamakura, has pronounced koshisori, funbari and chu kissaki, nagasa is 70cm but the nakago (UBU) is short and stubby in katate uchi style, therefore already in the sugata I find some discrepancies since if it were OEI I would expect a less marked sori and if it was sue bizen I would expect Sakisori.

Another point of kantei that could be interesting is the horimono in the classic combination of koshibi with soe bi and gomabashi which is certainly not common for  tachi/katana

The hada is a fine itame I would say tending towards muji as it is difficult to distinguish and masame in the shinoji (UTSURI IS NOT PRESENT) hamon is in nioi deki and wide, I would describe it as an articulate gunome choji midare based on notare but in some patterns there is a strong koshi hiraki feeling.
The yakidashi is sugu similar to the style of Osaka and boshi almost sugu, ko maru with a small sunagashi, therefore, following the rules, these indications take me to the Shinto period.

At this point contextualizing the sugata I would think of an utsushi from the shinshinto period but the nakago in terms of shape, length and patina seems to have nothing to do with it so I go back to the shinto period and think about which schools mainly follow bizen den and the two main options are Ishido and of course Yokoyama.
As far as Ishido is concerned, I can't find similarities with both the hamon and the nakago, while especially the nakago with Yokoyama  seems to find its ideal location, hence my attention therefore moves to the Sukesada line.
If my assumptions are correct now it still becomes complex to date the blade given so many Sukesada (I already red lot of topics on the forum about it and I thank the members for their contribution) but always following the rules sugu yakidashi and sugu boshi are characteristics of the shinto period (although the nakago still gives me the idea of late Muromachi) then going back to the sugata at this point would find its context in the Genroku period.

Given the mass production reputation of the Sukesada line, the blade being mumei should fall into this typology following the "signature typology" rule but seeing other blades for sale declared as "mass production" on AOI or other sites it seems to me of a different quality .
I therefore humbly ask for your considerations, corrections, opinions.

 

Thank you in advance

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Toryu2020]

Best to use SHAPE to determine age and not features in the hamon (there are always exceptions) - when it comes to shape you have to think of things along a range and not in absolutes - there was the mid-Kamakura shape that morphed into Namboku-cho and then gradually back to the older shape but adapted to the times - so you will see shapes that are very similar in say curvature but other factors like nakago shape or length that point you to specific periods when it is all added up.

 

Another general rule is there is more activity in the jigane before 1600 and more focus on the hamon after 1600 - jigane like this would not have been seen in Osaka or Yokoyama works - so you should be looking at the Gokaden to try and place it and by extension this means Koto schools.

 

Were it Sukesada being unsigned would be a concern but since it is an earlier work from a different line in Bizen, not so much of a concern...

 

-tch

[Nihonto student]

13 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

Best to use SHAPE to determine age and not features in the hamon (there are always exceptions) - when it comes to shape you have to think of things along a range and not in absolutes - there was the mid-Kamakura shape that morphed into Namboku-cho and then gradually back to the older shape but adapted to the times - so you will see shapes that are very similar in say curvature but other factors like nakago shape or length that point you to specific periods when it is all added up.

 

Another general rule is there is more activity in the jigane before 1600 and more focus on the hamon after 1600 - jigane like this would not have been seen in Osaka or Yokoyama works - so you should be looking at the Gokaden to try and place it and by extension this means Koto schools.

 

Were it Sukesada being unsigned would be a concern but since it is an earlier work from a different line in Bizen, not so much of a concern...

 

-tch

Thank you for your intervention and precious advice Mr. Helm, I have not yet had the opportunity to view many blades therefore many deductions that would seem obvious just by looking at the jigane it is still difficult for me ...

[Alex A]

Difficult from the images.

 

Kasane of 6mm with a worn looking horimono reminds me of Koto, rather than Edo. Be good to see a good pic of nakago.

 

When first looked at the hamon it reminded me of Koto Takada, they also worked in Ko-itame, the Yakidashi dont fit though, from memory (not to say you wont find one as they were known for copying other schools)

 

Its an interesting blade, like it.

 

Ps, some good looking into it by yourself, good to see.

[Rivkin]

I am not good with generalities, but I would start with stating that mid Kamakura blades... are not judged by sugata.

There is per se no such thing as mid Kamakura sugata.

For reasons which are not well understood among the blades attributable to mid Kamakura you find plenty of wide ones with uniform and centered curvature and there are even some o-kissaki examples... and there are more "plain Kamakura" koshi-zori, and there are essentially katanas (known as kodachi) and this is not even going into bizarre Rai Kunitoshi's things in hirazukuri or waki form.

Almost anything placed by sugata to mid Kamakura can be placed by sugata somewhere else as well.

If it does not have ko kissaki or ikubi kissaki, things not commonly adopted ever since, any koshi-zori blade can easily be roughly first half of Muromachi or the last couple of decades of Nambokucho etc.

The photographs do not show either jigane or the hamon well enough for my standards. I just don't see much there.

The tops of choji or gunome in Kagemitsu school are often squarish and that's what one often finds in Omiya. Their jigane is a bit rough and expected to have large featured mokume and masame elements but mostly itame based. Their utsuri is seldom spectacular and is often absent. However their nioguchi is often bright, and there are activities like sunagashi and overall tint of nie in the hamon which make their work bright and attractive or even move the attribution to Soden Bizen or Fukuoka Ichimonji.

I don't know exactly what is seen here.

Sukesada is quite different in most aspects.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Rivkin
not masame - itame

[Nihonto student]

54 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Difficult from the images.

 

Kasane of 6mm with a worn looking horimono reminds me of Koto, rather than Edo. Be good to see a good pic of nakago.

 

When first looked at the hamon it reminded me of Koto Takada, they also worked in Ko-itame, the Yakidashi dont fit though, from memory (not to say you wont find one as they were known for copying other schools)

 

Its an interesting blade, like it.

 

Ps, some good looking into it by yourself, good to see.

Dear Alex,
thank you for the encouragement, as already said my vision is still scholastic based only on books which rightly have to give guidelines but which are still difficult to interpret in the best way... I hope to see more blades soon...

[Nihonto student]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

I am not good with generalities, but I would start with stating that mid Kamakura blades... are not judged by sugata.

There is per se no such thing as mid Kamakura sugata.

For reasons which are not well understood among the blades attributable to mid Kamakura you find plenty of wide ones with uniform and centered curvature and there are even some o-kissaki examples... and there are more "plain Kamakura" koshi-zori, and there are essentially katanas (known as kodachi) and this is not even going into bizarre Rai Kunitoshi's things in hirazukuri or waki form.

Almost anything placed by sugata to mid Kamakura can be placed by sugata somewhere else as well.

If it does not have ko kissaki or ikubi kissaki, things not commonly adopted ever since, any koshi-zori blade can easily be roughly first half of Muromachi or the last couple of decades of Nambokucho etc.

The photographs do not show either jigane or the hamon well enough for my standards. I just don't see much there.

The tops of choji or gunome in Kagemitsu school are often squarish and that's what one often finds in Omiya. Their jigane is a bit rough and expected to have large featured mokume and masame elements but mostly masame based. Their utsuri is seldom spectacular and is often absent. However their nioguchi is often bright, and there are activities like sunagashi and overall tint of nie in the hamon which make their work bright and attractive or even move the attribution to Soden Bizen or Fukuoka Ichimonji.

I don't know exactly what is seen here.

Sukesada is quite different in most aspects.

Dear Kirill,

thank you for your detailed intervention, in my mind the evaluation key was mainly the combination of itame with masame in shinoji that brought me to the shinto period and the fact that the hada is not particularly strong, then I tried wrongly to contextualize the rest, if I can afford the attribution of OEI that you had already confirmed in the previous topic to be possible, and that you have now detailed, I agree on many points but the lack of utsuri or rather bo utsuri has always left me in doubt ... then about that period and Omiya/Kozori schools I struggle to find specific study material, can you suggest me something about it?

[Rivkin]

I actually meant itame when mentioned masame in one portion of the original message.

Kantei features have sort of weight assigned to them. And koshi-zori has a very significant one. Its presence in most circumstances excludes post-koto. Especially when its well proportioned with an appropriate taper and kissaki size.

I don't think its kozori.

This being said in the pre-1540 Muromachi that looks like that there are other options besides Omiya. Kaga Kiyomitsu should be given consideration as well as Bungo Takada.

Masame in shinogi ji generally hints towards Kaga or Takada.

[Alex A]

Find Ko-maru boshi in Takada, 

 

Just ideas.

[Nihonto student]

59 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Find Ko-maru boshi in Takada, 

 

Just ideas.

Takada can be a good call,  I had already noticed similarities during my research I will check again, while I excluded Kaga due to the pronounced ha agari kurijiri, here some photos of the nakago

[Rivkin]

I am missing something: don't know about "ha agari" part, but not all Kaga lineages used Kaga nakago. Kiyomitsu usually did, Norimitsu usually did not.

[Gakusee]

Omiya Morishige, as per the kanteisho papers, is plausible. Attached below are two Juyo examples - second one below around 69 cm nagasa and the top image around 72cm. The bottom image below - described by the NBTHK as sakizori and the other as koshizori. Both described as having chu-kissaki, while I would have characterised the longer one / top image to be with closer to ko-kissaki but difficult to say from oshigata. Interestingly, the bottom image below even has what appears in the oshigata as fumbari, so evident are various Kamakura features across both blades (small chu-kissaki, fumbari and koshizori). 
Note that both have shortish nakago, like yours. 
But they have different dates - one in 1400s and one in 1500s. 

So, as Kiril said, even later in time, there were koshizori blades with smaller kissaki in utsushi manner. 

The shape guides very broadly, but you need to look at the kitae first and foremost. Jigane is key to ageing and so is hamon. 
 

Ganbatte!

 

 

[Nihonto student]

5 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Omiya Morishige, as per the kanteisho papers, is plausible. Attached below are two Juyo examples - second one below around 69 cm nagasa and the top image around 72cm. The bottom image below - described by the NBTHK as sakizori and the other as koshizori. Both described as having chu-kissaki, while I would have characterised the longer one / top image to be with closer to ko-kissaki but difficult to say from oshigata. Interestingly, the bottom image below even has what appears in the oshigata as fumbari, so evident are various Kamakura features across both blades (small chu-kissaki, fumbari and koshizori). 
Note that both have shortish nakago, like yours. 
But they have different dates - one in 1400s and one in 1500s. 

So, as Kiril said, even later in time, there were koshizori blades with smaller kissaki in utsushi manner. 

The shape guides very broadly, but you need to look at the kitae first and foremost. Jigane is key to ageing and so is hamon. 
 

Ganbatte!

 

 

Dear Michael,

thank you for your contribution, certainly with your observations the certificate acquires more credibility therefore a connection with the Morishige line is plausible, I've seen other photos of Morishige blades here on the forum and there are many similarities but in general nakago seems more refined and I can't find a match for the yakidashi. However I think Kirill and Alex have given correct indications on where to investigate.

[Alex A]

I suppose you could send it to NBTHK, if you wish to do so.

 

Looking at examples, you could make it fit Takada. 

 

You find Masame in the Shinogi-ji

You find a mention of tight Ko-itame and Ko-mokume, aswell as O-hada, rather a mixed bag.

You find Ko-maru boshi

You find the same nakago

You find nioi deki and wide.

The minute i saw the hamon i thought Takada. Reminded me of a sword for sale a few years ago. Same irregular gunome/midare and choji, looked like it wanted to be Sukesada but the choji was different. It is written than Takada smiths were quite smitten with Sukesada and on occasion their work will fool folk into thinking Bizen. That sword was towards the end of the Muromachi though.

Also written that horimono is rarely seen and usually not the best.

 

Without researching more, the length of the blade to the nakago is a slight puzzle. It does look like katate-uchi but the longest i can remember in that bunch has a nagasa of around 67cm, i guess not too far away.

 

As for the blade shape, well, seen one too many exceptions to the rules.......... rule.

 

Anyways, just thoughts and nothing factual, be interesting to read what others have to say.