Modern swords and stamp removal

[Paz]

Hi all hope you are all well. 

 

I'm new to gendai swords and have a question regarding stamps. 

 

From research, reading leon kapps book  I understand that swords which were stamped, are to indicate that they were not made from tamahagne. 

 

However I also read that some swords which were stamped are made from tamahagne and Leon was incorrect in his book. 

 

My question is, are there ww2 era  swords which were stamped. And then the stamp was removed so that the sword can't be identified as being made by manchurian steel or any other non traditional steel ? . 

 

If so, how can you tell that a stamp has been removed ?. 

 

My understanding is, a sword is stamped so that one knows that's its not made from tamahagne. 

 

Also any sword made by kasama shigetsugu or his group at the yasakuni shrine is made from tamahagne as they were comissioned by the army to make traditional swords after any era they wanted. So the mass produced swords for the army were all stamped. Unless they had a special stamp from the yasakuni shrine which indicates otherwise. 

 

Thanks 

Regards 

Paz

[DoTanuki yokai]

I think many stamps were removed to sell showato as Nihonto. 
Not traditional blades look different and some say an oil quenched blade has darker spots at the top of the Yakiba. 

For finding removed stamps look at the places where they should be located and in most cases the removing process leave traces. 
 

And if you are not sure if it is Showato or Nihonto, if it does not look good enough,  it is most likely not a good art   sword Showato or Nihonto. 
 

 Yasukunito don’t have a stamp. 
They are signed Nijimei and if not special swords signed above the Mekugiana. 
 

But the army also used the RJT Programm and the blades made for the war effort this way are stamped with a Star and most likely traditional Nihonto. 

[drbvac]

I once had a Kanefusa 23 gendaito in civilian mounts that was a nice blade with a lovely horomono of a dragon and all dragon fittings that had a stamp - not removed but believe it or not it was filled with a strange - dark wax like substance. I only found it when I was cleaning the nakago with some alcohol and it t dissolved the material in the stamping and I could clean it out.  The dealer told me he did not put anything in it but offered me a partial refund on the purchase but it was a beautiful blade in any event.  Certainly did not look like an oil quenched blade and I am sure was traditionally made.  Will try to find some pics of it but may be on an old computer as I sold the blade many years ago.  In the first picture you can see a SHOWA stamp just below the copper hibaki. The horimono is very well done and crisp and clear. I sort of wish I had kept it but we are always trading up aren't we ?

[PNSSHOGUN]

You are working with incorrect information, that book is not reliable when discussing stamps on WWII swords. This document should set you straight:

 

[Rivkin]

I don't think any stamp was designed as proof of the manufacturing method. They indicate a type of maker or a certain path or "agency" through which the blade was supplied to the military. Those designed for inexpensive suppliers will deal mostly with showato, those with more pricy items will tend towards gendaito.

It needs to be said that in this context gendaito does not mean something made 100% in accordance to the current legal standard, which was unknown at the time.

A blade with good jigane will be called gendaito, but it might have only 50% tamahagane and 50% some other steel(s).

 etc.etc.etc.

[Bruce Pennington]

I agree with everything said above.  There has never been a law found, or a regulation produced, that ordered the stamping of blades.  Thomas found a reg that shows who each of the Army stamps were used by, but even that reg doesn't state why there were being used.  We only know for certain that the showa stamp was being put on blades inspected by the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association because poor quality showato were hurting the industry's reputation.  But we still don't know for a fact, whether that stamp was being put on both gendaito & showato, or just showato.  Ohmura cites a document that said traditionally made blades were not inspected by the Association, so I tend to believe that was the case.

 

To further complicate the matter, not all blades handled by the arsenals were stamped.  For some reason, the Nagoya Army Arsenal seemed to use the stamps the most.  It is very rare to find blades stamped with Tokyo 1st and Kokura arsenal stamps.  There are a few Osaka arsenal stamps to be found, too, but they are also not common.  On top of that, at least in the Fuller and Cox surveys where they counted non-stamped blades, half had no stamps at all.  But were all those un-stamped blades gendaito?  Certainly not.  

 

My personal observation is that blades with these stamps (not the star) are showato.  But this begs the question, is this because arsenals were only stamping showato or is it because smiths were predominantly sending only showato to the arsenals, and the arsenal acceptance inspectors could not care less either way?

[John C]

  On 4/7/2023 at 7:55 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

these stamps (not the star) are showato.

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Sorry, Bruce. I lost you a little bit. To which stamps are you referring in this line? I know Kanehide used the small Seki stamp on his gendaito.

John C.

[Guest Simon R]

Hi Paz,

 

To answer your question:

"If so, how can you tell that a stamp has been removed ?."

Usually quite easily, as the filling off of a stamp is often a very crude affair (though not, apparently, so obvious to the NBTHK shinsa team who have seen fit to award at least one such blade an origami).

 

Regards,

 

Simon

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 4/7/2023 at 10:30 PM, John C said:

Sorry, Bruce. I lost you a little bit. To which stamps are you referring in this line? I know Kanehide used the small Seki stamp on his gendaito.

John C.

Expand  

John,

I was writing hastily.  We all know (those who have followed the issue) that star-stamped blades are gendaito.  I have many star-stamped blades that also have small inspector stamps in addition to the star.  In the case of Kanehide, I have 4 of his star-stamped blades with either NA stamps (3 blades) or small Seki (1 blade).  In fact, the presence of these stamps on star-stamped blades lends some weight to the idea that the inspector stamps, in general, are simply military acceptance stamps that aren't saying anything about the manufacturing method of the blade.  The fact that all star-stamped blades don't have additional inspector stamps seems, to me, to support the idea that not all blades taken in by arsenals were inspected and stamped.  Possibly, the inspections and stamping was done on random samples.  I don't know, that is just supposition.  

 

If you are saying that you know of some non-star gendaito of Kanehide that bear the small seki, I'd appreciate links or samples.

[John C]

  On 4/8/2023 at 1:18 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

I have many star-stamped blades that also have small inspector stamps in addition to the star.

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I was just lost a little trying to sort out the different stamps. This answers my question. Thank you.

John C.

[Paz]

Thank you soo much for the above info and the pdf I've been going through. 

 

But I have another question that needs answering. 

 

Is there no way at all to tell if a sword had been forged using traditional tamahagne or muncharian steel / western steel. 

And handforged using  traditional techniques ? 

 

From the book I gather that's its literally impossible as they will show the same activity ie nioi, sunagashi, kinsuji ect 

 

Thanks

Regards 

[John C]

  On 4/9/2023 at 10:22 PM, Paz said:

Is there no way at all to tell if a sword had been forged using traditional tamahagne or muncharian steel / western steel. 

And handforged using  traditional techniques ? 

Expand  

I'll let others get into the details, however it is really two separate questions. In terms of the material used, it is definitely much harder to tell. In terms of the technique used, it is much easier. There are tell-tale signs of machine vs. hand forging and tell-tale signs of oil vs. water quenching.

John C.

[Brian]

The activities and hada will be different. The nickel content will show up differently. A fully traditional sword will shows classic chikei and/or inazuma/nie etc etc. Western steel if it leads to hada, will often show more of a "damascus" look and shiny bright layers. No easy way to reply, but comparing the 2 and looking at examples of both should clarify. Perhaps someone with more time can post some pics.

[Paz]

Thanks. I'd appreciate if anyone has a photo comparing the two.