Mei Translation Help Sincerely Appreciated

[Mike Z]

Hello.  I'm a new subscriber, and thus far have been reading other posts and generally marveling at the knowledge and helpfulness of this forum.  To say that both are the best I have seen in my years of seeking same, would be a huge understatement!  So, in advance, whether you can help me or not, thank you all for taking the time to help the posters in this forum.

 

In context, I am a long time appreciator of Japanese swords, but an absolute novice in my understanding of them.  I am reading a few recommended books, but have everything to learn.  A few years ago, I inherited two Japanese swords from my grandfather, who served in the Pacific theater in WWII.  The swords unfortunately, are in what I believe is poor condition, having lived for decades in a basement, without proper care.  I have done what I can to at least halt any further deterioration, and I am simply interested in understanding more about the origins of these heirlooms.  

 

The first sword has mei on both sides of the nakago.  Images of the first (most readable) side of the nakago, and the kissaki  follow.

 

I have many more images of the other side of nakago, which is more difficult to read, but I think I would need to post those separately or link to them.

 

Thanks again for your help,

 

best,

 

Mike

[Mark]

Suishinshi Masahide  smith from around 1800. very famous. you can find a lot online. compare the signatures you find. to my eye this looks gimei

[Mike Z]

33 minutes ago, Mark said:

Suishinshi Masahide  smith from around 1800. very famous. you can find a lot online. compare the signatures you find. to my eye this looks gimei

 

Mark!

 

Thank you so much!  That is fascinating, and yes, with that information, I find various points of corroboration online.  The signature in the following site for instance is a spot on match.

https://markussesko.com/2014/02/24/the-tsunahiro-connection-of-suishinshi-masahide/

 

I had attempted to muddle through interpreting the date on the other side of the nakago, and thought that one possibility was 1804.  But again, I have no idea what I'm doing, and didn't want to even mention my interpretation.

 

My understanding is that gimei means an inauthentic signature.

 

I'm attaching a few pics of the other side of the nakago, in the even that it may help with further identification.  Again, any assistance in understanding this mei is greatly appreciated!

 

 

[Mike Z]

Apologies... I have close-ups of the kanji, but when I attach them, they seem to get flipped upside down.

[Nobody]

應長尾權三郎元治需 – Responding to the order from Nagao Gonzaburo Motoharu

文化十五年二月日 – Bunka 15^th year (1818), 2^nd month

[Bugyotsuji]

32 minutes ago, Mike Z said:

Apologies... I have close-ups of the kanji, but when I attach them, they seem to get flipped upside down.

Sounds as if you have not edited and saved them within the phone camera. Click on edit, do some small crop etc, then push save. This should lock out the gimbal effect.

[Mike Z]

22 minutes ago, Nobody said:

應長尾權三郎元治需 – Responding to the order from Nagao Gonzaburo Motoharu

文化十五年二月日 – Bunka 15^th year (1818), 2^nd month

 

MORIYAMA,

 

Thank you so much!  This forum is simply amazing.  I have learned more tonight than in a year of spare time muddling, and trying to interpret individual kanji.  I am so appreciative of your time, and help!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Compare to a papered example from the same year: https://www.Japanese-sword-katana.jp/未分類/1810-1130.htm

 

[Bruce Pennington]

In the "FWIW" category, I have other Masahide, including with the same kakihan, to compare.  To my extremely untrained eye, they mei isn't that different.  But, I'm often wrong about such things.

[Mike Z]

Thank you John & Bruce!

 

So my entirely uneducated opinion is that the signature on my sword is sort of "messy", and just not as precise as those authenticated as Suishinshi Masahide.  I am also reading and learning more of the historical significance of this smith, the rarity of authenticated blades from this smith, and the prevalence of gimei bearing his signature. 

 

I think the prevailing opinion is that this is likely an inauthentic signature, correct?

 

That said, can anyone enlighten me as to what that means in the context of the quality and likely age of the blade?  All I can say for certain is that this sword was unaltered from the time it arrived in South Dakota in 1946.  Does the fact that the omote is gimei mean that this still may be an older blade from a less historically significant smith?  Or does this indicate that the ura date is also falsified, and this could be a mass-produced military blade?

 

Again, my grandfather has passed, and these swords are treasures for my family, regardless.  My inclination is to have them professionally polished and restored to the extent practical, regardless (I may have more questions on how to go about this in another thread!).  But, knowing the difference between a blade from the 1800's vs one mass-produced in the 1940's will help inform what is a practical investment in restoration!

 

Thanks all so much for an enjoyable night of learnings!  Any further guidance is much appreciated!

[Brian]

Mike, the sword is definitely genuine, and likely made at that time or before. So even if the signature is gimei, you still have a decent antique and genuine sword.
Swords like this should definitely get professional opinion, just on the chance that it is shoshin, it would be a significant find. Also bear in mind that gimei doesn't mean inferior quality. Lots of very good swords out there with false signatures. You may want to consider one of the US shinsas at some point later. You have done well to arrest the active rust. Oiling and wiping over time will help. Nothing abrasive of course. Looks like a decent sword, and I see nothing that places it in the wartime arsenal category.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Definitely worth a closer look, there is one in Chicago soon: http://www.chicagoswordshow.com/shinsa-information/

[ROKUJURO]

Mike,

there seems to be scale on the NAKAGO and I can't see any YASURIME. This may point to one of the very many GIMEI blades of the famous MASAHIDE, but as Brian pointed out, it might still be a decent blade.

[Mike Z]

On 4/6/2023 at 1:14 AM, Brian said:

Mike, the sword is definitely genuine, and likely made at that time or before. So even if the signature is gimei, you still have a decent antique and genuine sword.
Swords like this should definitely get professional opinion, just on the chance that it is shoshin, it would be a significant find. Also bear in mind that gimei doesn't mean inferior quality. Lots of very good swords out there with false signatures. You may want to consider one of the US shinsas at some point later. You have done well to arrest the active rust. Oiling and wiping over time will help. Nothing abrasive of course. Looks like a decent sword, and I see nothing that places it in the wartime arsenal category.

Hi Brian, John & Jean,

 

Thanks so much for the clarification.  Again, I can't tell you all how much I appreciate your tie and your feedback!

 

If you all would be so kind, I have a few more questions...

 

• I have been oiling and wiping the blades with mineral oil, and a microfiber cloth, every ~ 3 months.  They are stored in a relatively dry office, in the mid west.  Is there anything more I should be doing to maintain the blades?

• I don't think that I can make the event in Chicago in April, but I am planning to get a professional opinion about this sword.  Is there a good reference schedule as to where and when shinsas are happening in the US?

• I am posting a few more pics, in the event that anyone is interested in seeing the rest of the sword.  I have always thought these blades in relatively poor condition, but I'm entirely unsure if they are beyond restoration.  Any opinions as to what polishing and restoration might do for this sword?

 

Thanks so much for your time and willingness to share your knowledge!

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

[Mark]

if you can adjust your schedule and come to Chicago you can ask multiple polishers face to face about potential for restoration and get ideas on costs and time frame.  Also there will be several knowledgeable people there that could offer an opinion. If you are in SD there will not be anything closer to you than Chicago

 

There is no schedule for future shinsa. The NTHK was in SF last August and the NTHK-NPO  in Chicago this year so it may be a while till the next one.

 

You could accomplish more, and get more information,  in a day at the show than in months or research on your own.  One reason we have shows is to help with education and sharing knowledge.

 

Mark

[Mike Z]

6 hours ago, Mark said:

if you can adjust your schedule and come to Chicago you can ask multiple polishers face to face about potential for restoration and get ideas on costs and time frame.  Also there will be several knowledgeable people there that could offer an opinion. If you are in SD there will not be anything closer to you than Chicago

 

There is no schedule for future shinsa. The NTHK was in SF last August and the NTHK-NPO  in Chicago this year so it may be a while till the next one.

 

You could accomplish more, and get more information,  in a day at the show than in months or research on your own.  One reason we have shows is to help with education and sharing knowledge.

 

Mark

 

Thanks Mark.  I would love to attend.  I'm actually in Iowa, only about a 5 hour drive from Schaumburg, and one I make somewhat regularly, as we have an office in Carol Stream.  unfortunately, my wife is out of town on business that weekend already.  But, I will see what I can do.

[Mike Z]

On 4/6/2023 at 1:14 AM, Brian said:

Mike, the sword is definitely genuine, and likely made at that time or before. So even if the signature is gimei, you still have a decent antique and genuine sword.
Swords like this should definitely get professional opinion, just on the chance that it is shoshin, it would be a significant find. Also bear in mind that gimei doesn't mean inferior quality. Lots of very good swords out there with false signatures. You may want to consider one of the US shinsas at some point later. You have done well to arrest the active rust. Oiling and wiping over time will help. Nothing abrasive of course. Looks like a decent sword, and I see nothing that places it in the wartime arsenal category.

 

Hi @Brian & @Mark,

 

I rearranged my schedule and am planning to take both of the heirloom blades to the Chicago show at the end of April.  I have been corresponding with Chris B about squeezing them in for Shinsa.  However, my question... I have been doing a lot of reading the past few days, and I'm wondering if the blades are in too bad of condition for Shinsa?  The cost is a no-brainer... but I don't want to offend with the very poor historical upkeep, nor waste their time with blades that cannot be evaluated. 

 

Honestly, I will seek polishing & restoration for both, regardless... and what I am really looking for in Chicago is just a more definitive understanding of their origin.  Perhaps I can learn this at the show, while forgoing the Shinsa?

 

Thanks again for all of your time and consideration,

 

Best,

 

Mike

[ChrisW]

53 minutes ago, Mike Z said:

 

Hi @Brian & @Mark,

 

I rearranged my schedule and am planning to take both of the heirloom blades to the Chicago show at the end of April.  I have been corresponding with Chris B about squeezing them in for Shinsa.  However, my question... I have been doing a lot of reading the past few days, and I'm wondering if the blades are in too bad of condition for Shinsa?  The cost is a no-brainer... but I don't want to offend with the very poor historical upkeep, nor waste their time with blades that cannot be evaluated. 

 

Honestly, I will seek polishing & restoration for both, regardless... and what I am really looking for in Chicago is just a more definitive understanding of their origin.  Perhaps I can learn this at the show, while forgoing the Shinsa?

 

Thanks again for all of your time and consideration,

 

Best,

 

Mike

Be sure to stop by the "Indiana island" part of the dealers tables! Myself, Dan, and Barret will all be present. Would definitely love to hear your shinsa results in person!

[Mark]

Mike

 

There will be a lot of experienced people at the show and you will get a lot of opinions. You can listen and then form your own conclusions. Keep in mind some people have time and are happy to help, but at times people are busy.

 

There will be a number of polishers in attendance, so if you are thinking of restoration you can get information on cost and time frames.

 

If you decide you want to submit them for shinsa after you get some opinions you can try and ask Chris, if you catch him when he is not swamped he could quickly tell you if they are in condition to allow judging and then you can ask about getting them in. When you are showing it around you can ask people if the condition is an issue for shinsa and you may figure that out yourself

 

If these are long term projects you can use the show to learn all you can and then research etc after the show.  If you are not in a rush there will be other opportunities for shinsa in the future.

 

mark