Tsuba rust removal

[raynor]

This side of the tsuba has more active rust then I am comfortable with, besides patience and gentle bone treatment here is there anything else I could do? I think there is too many spots where oil could soak in and resurrect the problem in the future so not looking to do that.

[Winchester]

I will try to pay it forward, with my experience and what worked for me, but this is only my opinion and I am not an expert by any means. If this has considerable value due to maker, stop reading. I have only done this on sub $500.00 tsuba.

 

Please take my advice with a grain of salt, but again, I had personally fantastic results with this:

 

-small amount of choji oil, about the size of a dime, placed directly on "0000" steel wool--a small, pulled corner. I would not use anything outside of this level of abrasiveness.

 

-Next, take my time rubbing the tsuba paying very close attention that I am not too focused on one spot; that is, doing an initial cursory scrub of the areas of concern. 

 

-wipe the tsuba with a microfiber cloth (removes excess oil and any small pieces of steel wool). Review under a good light to see what areas remain. Pay more attention repeating the process in these areas.

 

-repeat, rubbing with a fresh drop of choji oil and the 0000 steel wool. You will notice areas around the embellishments are harder to clean /remove the rust. Place a bit more pressure until you notice the rust is starting to be removed. *First start in an area without any embellishment to get a feel or sense of the type of pressure and amount of rubbing to remove the rust.*

 

-Go slow. When you have it in an OK spot, stop. You may need to revisit in a couple months to see what areas rust was remaining and repeat the process.

 

Once finished for that session, wipe with 1-3 microfiber cloths to ensure that any pieces of steel wool are gone.

 

I would not use any sort of metal polish because it could result in ruining the patina. You'd really have to be putting elbow grease, for a long time, to do that with 0000 steel wool. 

[Grey Doffin]

Sorry but I have to disagree. I wouldn't use steel wool of any grit on any tsuba and certainly not on one with shakudo and other soft metal. I think the steel wool is too aggressive for the iron and I'm sure it would do serious damage to the shakudo and silver. Normally I use ivory on iron tsuba but when there is a bunch of soft metal to work around I've had good luck with a fiberglass pen, a tool for cleaning electronics contacts. It is easy to work into corners and doesn't scratch the iron.

Grey

[Dan tsuba]

Hello member Raynor!

 

I don't clean all the rust off my tsuba!  I enjoy a bit of rust, I can purchase the tsuba for a cheaper price and it sometimes can help me deterimne its age.

Anyway, I just use an old toothbrush and some gun bore cleaner and then wipe the tsuba down and let it dry.  I then dip it in mineral oil and let that dry to coat the tsuba and keep it from rusting any further (although I noticed that you didn't want to use any oil).

 

Also, a few years ago someone on the fourm mentioned that I could use a horsehair brush (like a new shoebrush) to gently clean the tsuba every day or every other day.  Over several months it will make the tsuba look much better.  I have only done that on one of my tsuba, because it takes a while and is time -consuming!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Bugyotsuji]

52 minutes ago, Grey Doffin said:

Sorry but I have to disagree. I wouldn't use steel wool of any grit on any tsuba and certainly not on one with shakudo and other soft metal. I think the steel wool is too aggressive for the iron and I'm sure it would do serious damage to the shakudo and silver. Normally I use ivory on iron tsuba but when there is a bunch of soft metal to work around I've had good luck with a fiberglass pen, a tool for cleaning electronics contacts. It is easy to work into corners and doesn't scratch the iron.

Grey

Never heard of a fiberglass pen/pencil, but just looked it up. Looks like a good tool to have. Thanks.

[1kinko]

The steel wool will also introduce a form of steel that will rust very easily. I’d start with a bamboo toothpick.

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, the problem here is not an overall iron tsuba, but Omar's tsuba above which requires patient delicate work on the iron ji, without touching the precious metal inlays. I have a similar problem tsuba which is an ongoing work of love.

[Franco]

10 hours ago, raynor said:

, besides patience and gentle bone treatment here is there anything else I could do?

 

 

Once the heavier rust is removed using deer antler and ivory, purchase natural bristle paint brushes and gently brush the iron surfaces. Let the brushes and time do the work. Keep the brushes and work surfaces clean. 

 

If this were my tsuba, despite having successfully restored a number of tsuba, I would consider contacting Brian Tschernega about having it professionally restored.

 

Regards,

 

 

[Steves87]

Plus one for fibre glass pens here too

Edited April 6, 2023 by Steves87
Added pics

[raynor]

Thanks for the tips all, I think I'll have to look into the fiberglass pen. I'm sure it works for some but I won't use oil or any harder material like steel wool here, for the exact reasons Grey mentioned with the inlayed metals. Bone and patience is what I started with and eventually it should be enough, if the fiberglass pen is what I think it is the areas around the inlays should be treatable as well. Has anyone tried regular wooden toothpicks for this? I'm slightly apprehensive about trying to reach those small spots with what have to be pointy bone or ivory that would apply too much pressure and possibly scratch the patina as well as red rust.

 

I've never considered having this tsuba professionally restored, it's a nice mumei tsuba I believe could be Mito, or I might be way off, but not a piece I think would at this point warrant such an expense. I've spent my whole fun budget for a while on rare books and travels in a post pandemic frenzy.

 

Also apologies for the terrible first photo, it looks miles better on my phone but I realized using my laptop that the HDR (extra lighting) layer gets removed when uploaded in addition to added compression noise, this should give a better impression:

[rkg]

You have to be super careful with those fiberglass pencils - they will scratch the hell out of your patina if you're not REALLY careful (they go waay too fast)/I wouldn't recommend using them on anything important. That said, they seem somewhat useful to "tap" with (like a mini scaler) on those little mountains of corrosion you find sometimes - again, only as a last resort. You'd also be advised to use random patterns (swirls, etc) rather than linear motion in any other case when you are brushing with them - you see a lot of pieces where they dig at them with whatever in straight lines and it looks terrible when you study the results/look like scratches in your auction images (which is what they are).

 

Aside from Ivory, horn, bamboo chopstick, cloth and the usual round Japanese horsehair brush (good luck finding them), for finer work you can get some small artist's bristle brushes (natural bristle, nothing synthetic for a number of reasons), cut them off close to the ferrule and have at it, though you'll probably have to crimp the ferrule (most of them aren't tight enough to keep the bristle from moving). I've become a big fan of these - its slow, but... and again, try not to always brush in a straight line all the time.

 

For the basket cases there are also these larger Japanese pot scrubbing brushes (made out of bamboo or something) that might work better than the fiberglass brush (they don't damage the surface as much/instantly dig through any patina to raw metal like the fiberglass pens can/do) - but again, you have to be careful with those too as they aren't the most precise tool either. but they are actually common/easy to find/not too expensive/etc.

 

The non fiberglass brushes are also good because you can just use your finger to protect a lot of features and just brush up to it - don't be doing that with the fiberglass brush (an old school metal eraser shield works better, but its metal too, so again be super careful).

 

the non-fiberglass brushes can be slower... but that also gives you lots of time to stop before you've ripped too much off, etc.

 

Also note that a LOT of pieces have wax (often colored - grrr)/oil on them you got to make an effort to get that off on the areas you are working so you can see what is happening.

 

And if you're gonna do fiberglass, it goes everywhere (so be prepared to contain it - I usually make up a 'bowl/tray out of folded paper, let the piece sit on a paper towels. and just thow the while thing away between sessions), you should wear gloves (the little shards are annoying), etc and.. an optivisor/good lighting is your friend.

 

Good Luck,

rkg

(Richard George)

[raynor]

Thanks Richard. I'll have a look at the fiberglass pencil option but will remember your warning. I'll rather finish this with some red rust remaining then damage the patina at all. Preservation >> my wish for it to look clean after all. I do not think this tsuba has any wax, but then again I have not yet had the opportunity to study any with it in hand so not experienced those factors. I've heard to boil in distilled water for that but so far that is not on my list of things to do, less is more. I just wish to halt and remove as much red rust as possible on the main surface without compromising the tsuba in any other ways.

 

I'm post covid locked in Norway for now and believe it or not bamboo toothpicks are exotic here, so I wonder if anyone have tried regular wooden ones for tricky small areas, they're soft enough that I'd feel safe going close to inlays.

 

Now with a less terrible photo up, am I right assuming the left buffalo is shibuichi?

[1kinko]

I’d stay away from water, boiled or not. If there’s a Chinese restaurant near you you might get bamboo chopsticks and trim them down to size. You buffalo could be shibuichi, but yamagani or copper could also turn that color over time. Really any hard wood may work - oak?

[Franco]

2 hours ago, raynor said:

Has anyone tried regular wooden toothpicks for this?

 Haven't used wooden toothpicks for rust removal, but have used them on soft metal tosogu for minor restoration and cleaning without issue.

 

Among the tools I've used for restoring iron tsuba (removing rust) are old broken ivory crotchet hooks that can usually be found at flea markets. With varied shapes and sizes available, just the right one for the job often presents itself. I've not had an issue with these ivory pieces causing damage on an iron surface. 

 

 

 

 

[b.hennick]

An old ivory piano key is easy to shape and easy to use. If you have trouble finding them you might ask a piano tuner for one. 

[Steves87]

Richard is fairly spot in with the dangers of fibre glass pens, although, I suspect there are differing degrees of hardness to them. I have two different kinds, one tends to be able to get into solid stuff, where as the other just smudges, if that makes sense. Modern day tent struts can be cut down and worked into a suitable shape with a power sander.

This picture is an example close to yours in both smith and condition, I used the pen for the plate and hard up to the inlay (and on the inlay), I used a pine toothpick. Everything else was soap and a "soft" spec toothbrush. Unfortunately I have issues with remembering to photo a Tsuba "before", the before photos in this case didn't show the rust well (or at all really) so focus on the wax removal on the sakura

[Brian]

Contact a place like this, tell them you want broken pieces. I am sure you'll be able to get some "donated" to you for a very low handling fee.
https://www.walkerpiano.com/ivory

[Alex A]

Don't look to bad to me.

 

Would just spend some time rubbing the rust with my thumb, touch of oil and a soft rag maybe. Obviously avoiding the soft metal, as mentioned.

 

Some old dumbbells in the garage that pick up rust when i don't use them.  When i do use them = beautiful dark patina, no special tactics necessary 

 

For the finer details, what was said above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1kinko]

Check out the FB site “Projects step by step-Katana forum”. Robert Lisnafali has shown remarkable restorations on rust exposed kinko tosogu and rust removal on helmets and menpo. He does a lot of microscopic work but when I asked about his methods he only mentioned Vulpex which is a “non-acid deep searching cleaner…”

[raynor]

I'll check it out but will use no chemicals for this, just the good old fashioned bone/ivory and patience, likely looking into the fiberglass pen option as well if needed. Any chemicals is a bad idea unless we know for certain what we are doing. Not saying I know better then Robert Lisnafali but I am inherently skeptical to new and better solutions dealing with in many cases century old items, made with skills and materials the vast majority of us these days have no idea how to treat beyond subtle physical manipulation. Thus the bone/ivory tools that is harder then the red rust but soft enough to not damage the items unless you try to break a sweat is what makes sense if prioritizing the preservation of the item over desired visual "as new" looks achieved by harsh or untested methods.

 

I'm preaching to the choir here but you never know when someone ends up reading through the forum while considering what to do with grandpas sword they just got a hold of. In most cases leave it alone or get the piano keys out..

[Bugyotsuji]

The rust was deep and many years ago I went too far. I’m showing this as an example of overdoing things!

 

Oh, and two horse-hair brushes… 

 

 

 

 

[rematron]

@Bugyotsuji, on your tsuba, I like that the moon behind the clouds also looks like a horned oni.  I wonder if that was intentional.  Sorry for changing the subject. 

[Alex A]

Could be repaired that Piers.

[Bugyotsuji]

Jeremy, I like your interpretation. 

 

Alex, I know, but it's been low down on the to-do list for years. Maybe I'll take it along to the next meet where there are friendly artisans in the room for advice as to whether I should ask someone to do it, or attempt it myself. I suspect that restoration of patina is a specialized work of alchemy.

[rematron]

@Bugyotsuji Piers, it reminds my of my own tsuba with the same theme.  Two geese representing unity and/or marriage and an oni.  In mine case the oni is specifically Tsuno Daishi.  This is why I wonder if your cloud and moon oni is on purpose. Sorry again for hijacking the thread.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

角大師 - Bing images

 

Never heard of Tsuno Daishi before but you could well be right. Very interesting. He wards off sickness...

 

Apologies for the thread drift away from rust treatment!

 

Here is the reverse, plus those brushes again!

 

[Bugyotsuji]

鬼の姿で疫病を滅する！ “最強”の「角大師護符」とは？｜そうだ 京都、行こう。 (souda-kyoto.jp)

 

Really fascinating background story. I wonder if we could run this through a translation machine?

Since the priest 良源 Ryogen's alternative name was Ganzan Daishi 元三大師, and Tsuno Daishi appeared in his meditation to ward off a pestilence in Kyoto, I wonder if the two birds are a play on words, the sound 'Gan' also meaning 雁 (gan) wild geese?

[Steves87]

I actually had the tools out today, so I thought I might take a picture for the visual explanation of the fibreglass pens. 

In the photo you can see the the brushes, bamboo sticks, various fibreglass pens (some almost stubs now), pine toothpicks, and two mystery utensils for special occasions, which I won't go in to (Aluminium and brass).