Question on mounts for war, gunto

[Ron M]

No answer on Facebook group so…..

Hello all, so I believe I do know the answer but getting thoughts:
 ….When I see a sword (“war sword”) with a leather combat cover (implying gunto) but the ashi (hanger) on the saya is mounted for edge down (tachi) but the tsuba is mounted edge up…..is this technically “thrown together”? 
Would a soldier wear it mounted like that?? An edge up tosogu mount but using an edge down saya setup and worn that way??
Thanks for any opinions

[DTM72]

Sorry, my simple brain is not getting it. Do you have pictures or a sketch of your example?

 

Tsuba only go on one way and cannot be mounted upside down. The nakago-ana (the tang hole in the tsuba) is normally a somewhat triangle shape and can not go on edge up or edge down. It CAN be put on with the kozuka hitsu-ana and kogai hitsu-ana reversed, but not upside down. Additionally, why do you think the tsuba is upside down or mounted "edge up"? Tsuba are generally symmetrical and don't have an edge to be mounted up or down. (See earlier comment about nakago-ana) Due to the sori of the blade, it would be impossible to noto (return the blade to the saya) a katana unless you roll the saya 180 degrees, on a tachi mount. Once it is back in the saya, it could then hang as a tachi.

 

Sorry in advance, I have an old, slow brain and I need pictures.

[Ray Singer]

Ron, I saw your post on FB as well, not did not follow the part about the tsuba. The tsuba nakago-ana will always be pointed in alignment with the direction of the blade. If a katana (edge upwards) is modified to have an ashi, the sword will be worn tachi style, with the edge downwards. That is not a situation of being 'thrown together', it is simply the new orientation when a katana was adapted to be worn in suspended fashion during the war 

[Ron M]

Hi guys, what I’m asking is this:

 I have seen a lot of “war” swords with old family blades, and these have tsuba (iron, not gunto) that are clearly for wearing with the blade edge up (like in an obi) yet the blade is housed in a leather combat cover that looks to be worn like a tachi, edge down, since the hanger is on the mune side.

my question is: would a soldier wear it slung on his hip with the edge downward, hanging from the ashi, knowing the appearance outwardly from the front is it’s upside down??

 I don’t know if I can explain this better.

thank you

[Ray Singer]

If the sword has an ashi, it likely was worn edge down during the war, irrespective of the other fittings. 

[Brian]

Tsuba don't necessarily HAVE to be worn with the design visible from the front in the correct orientation. If the worn position changed, then the tsuba direction changed..there was no compulsion to have a different tsuba fitted that then turned the motiff the right way.

[DTM72]

I agree with Ray. The sword may have lived mounted as a katana (edge up) its entire life until mounted for WWII as a "Tachi style" mounting. (edge down)

[Ron M]

I cannot imagine as a 50 year karate student/instructor, that with all of the sublime “rules of etiquette” that the Japanese have in their lives, that they would allow a sword to be worn clearly mounted upside down. 
then again, as a retired combat veteran, war is hell and you use what you use.

thank you gents

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Ron M said:

clearly mounted upside down.

Ron, 

Sounds like you've spent all your sword hours studying samurai nihonto!  Spend some time studying WWII use of swords and you'll see what we are saying.  ALL swords worn during tthe war, including re-fitted civil/family swords, were worn tachi, or cutting edge down.  Now, I have seen, maybe, 2 examples of re-fitted swords worn cutting edge up, those are by far the exception.

 

Check out Ohmura's site:

Military Swords of Imperial Japan (Guntō) (ohmura-study.net)

Here is his page on swords with leather covered saya:

九八式軍刀略式外装 Informality mounting (ohmura-study.net)

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:10 PM, Ron M said:

 

 I have seen a lot of “war” swords with old family blades, and these have tsuba (iron, not gunto) that are clearly for wearing with the blade edge up (like in an obi) yet the blade is housed in a leather combat cover that looks to be worn like a tachi, edge down, since the hanger is on the mune side.

Something like this?

 

[Ron M]

40 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Something like this?

 

Excellent pictures! However,

Both of these show a kurigata on the outer side of the saya so I understand the proper position, but the ones I have seen in a combat cover don’t have a kurigata and only an ashi hanger on the mune side, clearly,  it would hang upside down.

Good stuff!

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, Ron M said:

Excellent pictures! However,

Both of these show a kurigata on the outer side of the saya so I understand the proper position, but the ones I have seen in a combat cover don’t have a kurigata and only an ashi hanger on the mune side, clearly,  it would hang upside down.

Good stuff!

Ron

Please post the photo that you mentioned .