Determining "hand forged" from "cast"!

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So, how to determine if a tsuba may be cast iron?  Besides taking a hammer to it or having it metallurgically non-invasive tested, there may be another possible way!

 

I have a stereoscopic microscope I have used several years ago for my cheap gem collection.  I used it to determine if there were “fractures” or "inclusions" in the gems.

 

It can magnify from 10X to 80X.  I have recently used it to check out some of my tsuba.  Now, without posting pictures (which is difficult to do because my stereoscopic eyepiece digital camera software is on my old computer!) I can tell you that you can determine visual differences in the tsuba metal. 

 

You can determine if the metal is smooth (hand forged, or possibly hand forged), grainy texture (sand cast), or has varying depths and texture to the metal (rusted).

 

Although this is not a “positive” test for the differeenc between cast iron and hand forged iron tsuba (because it could be that several cast iron tsuba were probably hand worked to make them appear smooth- like a hand forged tsuba) it is an interesting thing to do, and it may provide a “quick reference” to determine if the tsuba was hand forged or cast.

 

A stereoscopic microscope can be a lot cheaper than a tsuba.  I refer you to this website-

 

https://amscope.com/collections/stereo-microscope

 

Anyway, just some fun stuff which may interest some members!  That’s what you do when you are retired!  Break out the old stereoscopic microscope and look at tsuba!  I have nothing else better to do! I need to get a life!  Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. ha. etc!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

[rkg]

Dan,

A man after my own heart... 

 

Several years ago by sheer luck I picked up a zeiss standard 14 and it kind of changed my world with regards to studying kodogu.  I have to add my +1 to Dan's comments - anybody seriously studying kodogu needs something like this, and I'd also  recommend a stereo microscope because of the way features just leap out at you. 

 

My unit has a trinocular port and while I can get pretty fair images through it you just don't see what you see through the eyepieces.  FWIW, I've been thinking of building up a rig to hold my 3-d camera up to the eyepieces and see if I can record the effect (features jumping out at you), but since I think I'm the only guy who has a 3-D camera anymore it went to the bottom of my list.  But I digress. 

 

My only other comment would be to be sure you actually pony up for some decent lighting.  My normal go-to is an old school cold light source with dual gooseneck head, though you can also get some decent illumination using those itty bitty usb powered led lights on some of those usb gooseneck extensions (I have a usb power bank with a couple of outputs that works great as a counterweight for a couple of these).  Being able to vary the intensity/direction/type of light is really helpful.

 

There used to be a constant stream of these older units showing up, often with reasonably recent maintenance and dirt cheep (relative to what they cost originally/what a unit of equivalent quality would cost today), but that seems to have dried up unfortunately.

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Richard,

 

I have an old Spencer stereoscopic microscope (nowadays they sell on Ebay for cheap!)   It is not a Zeiss standard 14 (wow, those are expensive!) but it gets the job done!  I am glad I finally decided to use it to check out my tsuba.  I use a flashlight or a curved gooseneck lamp to add light to the viewing experience.

 

The stereoscopic microscope adds a whole new dimension to tsuba collecting!  It is amazing what one can see!  I would recommend something like that for all collectors of tsuba!

 

With respect,

Dan

[rematron]

I'm inspired to purchase a Zeis Standard 14.  I've always wanted to get into macro photography.  

 

I'm also interested in finding out how much it costs to have an item non-invasively tested, metallurgically speaking.  

 

Do cast iron tsuba sound different from forged tsuba when they are strung up by string and whacked with a wooden mallet?

 

I'm becoming very interested in learning the truth about cast iron tsuba.  Especially when my eyes and gut say that something is too carbon-copied looking to be copied by hand.  Because I'm not interested in acquiring anything that remotely approaches the look of a cast iron tsuba as a collector, I will just avoid tsuba like that, I guess, mainly just because they "don't look right" to me.  I like what I like, right?  And as I pointed out in the wasp tsuba thread, I wholly volunteer that my guts and eyes could be completely wrong and according to some authorities, that is the case.  My Western eyes see an exact copy with superficial differences, and they tell my brain: "that is a cast copy" and the idea that it is a copy made by hand just doesn't seem to register even though there are authorities in the NMB that say it is a completely normal thing for artisans of the period to do.  And I propose that could absolutely be the case and I am just not exposed or learned enough to grasp that truth, unfortunately for me.  My other novice observation is I have noticed in my extremely short time of scrutinization that tsuba which have this carbon-copy look to them also share a characteristic finish.

 

The mystery is intriguing to me and I would love to learn for myself that my novice observations are fact less.  Because the burden of truth lies with anyone who is questioning the accepted thought on the subject of early cast iron tsuba, it would be amazing to find actual evidence to support the theory of Edo cast iron tsuba.  

 

I'm agnostic on the whole argument and will happily accept the truth, whatever it is, but it intrigues me that there are respected authorities on both sides of the debate.  

 

Afterthought:  I suppose I will need to acquire at least a couple of the tsuba I find questionable in order to do my own research.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Jeremy.

 

I have a digital camera eyepiece with computer software.  I replace one of the eyepieces in the stereoscopic microscope and (with the software loaded on my computer) I can take a picture.

You can find one here-

 

https://amscope.com/products/c-md100?gclid=Cj0KCQjwuLShBhC_ARIsAFod4fKOV8guYezaHosFaKviBE9FaTD6t_057X9pNw6fMkkohUIFiEjelW8aAqeuEALw_wcB

 

Also, very nice (and in my opinion smart!) that you asked your “cast iron tsuba” question here and not on that “other thread”!

 

I have no idea how much it costs to have a tsuba non-invasively tested, but it is probably not cheap!

 

And some members say that a cast iron tsuba will produce a different sound than a forged tsuba.  I think that subject was discussed somewhere on that “Tsuba casting molds?” thread.

 

I have only been collecting tsuba for 5 years.  I can tell you how I figure stuff out, but even I have been “bit” a couple of times! 

Hey, stuff happens.

I can tell you that I don’t spend over $200.00 for a tsuba, so if I am wrong, I don’t loose a lot of money (not like losing $1000.00 or more!).

 

Anyway, probably the best thing to do is if you can download a picture of the tsuba you wish to purchase, just post it on the forum and ask members what they think.

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

[rematron]

Hi Dan,

 

Thanks for the link.  I'm going to be doing a bit of homework on what instruments and software to buy. The name of the microscope and your photo adaptor link are appreciated jumping off points.

 

Yes, I am done joining in on the speculatory conversations.  It's time for science.  Otherwise, the conversation is circular which is boring to me.  It's all been said and will be said again.

 

This is an apropos titled thread for a new endeavor of physical discovery and applied science as opposed to the rehashing of old text and online sources.

 

I don't like asking purchasing advice openly on the forum for a number of reasons but I do know a couple people who have been kind enough to give me their opinions privately.

 

Best regards,

Jeremy

[rkg]

Jeremy,

 

If you are going for a standard 14, look for one with the trinocular setup.  Some stages are better than others for this work as well - the one I got came with a sliding/rotating stage which works pretty well, though I ended up using some of that magic non-linear grease on the sliding mechanism to stiffen it up.  I have 10x eyepieces all around (the one that came on the trinocular port also had standard threads so you can easily screw a lens adapter into it).   I normally use a 1.6 crop camera (canon SL2 if you care) with a old school 50mm macro lens and I get pretty good results with that if you shoot a white card with each lighting setup/use a gray card to get the exposure kind of correct.  I then ALWAYS shoot tethered so you can see what you are focusing on (really nice to do on a big screen).  you'll need to at least get a 2.5X objective - its the one I use most - I actually found one of their 1.25X objectives, but it is of limited use because its difficult to get light to the piece around it (you end up REAL CLOSE to the surface) - it might be useful if you had a rig that could apply light through the objective, but YMMV as I've never pursued getting the necessary bits and trying it.

 

Note that there isn't a whole of depth of field so you pretty much always have to focus stack if you want to show much depth when shooting. you can actually get pretty good results by parking the focus at one extreme feature and doing the "turn the knob, take a picture repeat" thing.   In general, the new systems are all around better for this (optics can be better, have at least an OK (resolution is usually poor, but...) camera built in, and many will automatically do the focus stacking for you - here's a youtube video I posted on the kodogu no sekai site on FB a while back:
 

 

great to watch since he describes all the issues you will run into...  I've posted a bunch of images I've done there over the years/posted some here too...

 

Anyway, agreed on getting some other tools - all my metallurgy classes were sooo long ago so I can't suggest much on what to look for (it doesn't help I'm hopped up on painkillers/muscle relaxants at the moment too) - seems like you'd also want some stuff like an XRF spectrometer gun to play with (I'd dearly love to get one of these if the prices ever come down).

 

Anyway, I should stop rambling now.

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

[Dan tsuba]

Wow, Richard!  Thanks for the great info, but that is just too complicated for this old guy!

 

So, what I did was get out my old stereoscopic microscope (made by the Spencer Company), my old computer, my microscope eyepiece digital camera, and a Nanban tsuba.

 

Now it is unknown when the Nanban tsuba was made, because it Is not papered.  But I think it is a cast iron tsuba.

 

I decided to do this because referring back to the thread listed below (oh no, not “that” thread- ha, ha, ha, etc!) and the great observations by JohnTo about cast iron (posted 4/5/23) and Spartancrest (also posted on 4/5) about Nanban tsuba.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44289-another-iron-wasp-tsuba-choshu-hagi-ju-tomomichi/page/2/#comments

 

So, I have taken some pictures through the stereoscopic microscope (first picture shown is just with a regular camera to show the tsuba).  I took the same picture through the microscope at 2 different magnification levels.  They all show the same area of the tsuba which is the upper part of the nakago-ana (tang hole) showing the tagane-ato (punch marks). 

 

The last picture shows a small portion of the upper part of the tsuba so the “grain” can be seen.

It looks like you have to be signed into the forum, and then click on the uploaded files below the first picture to see the rest of the pictures (I don't know how that happened, it could be that I am pretty much computer illiterate!  Oh well!)

 

Anyway, I know I have to work on the lighting and stuff.  But it is still interesting, and it shows what can be seen with one of these stereoscopic microscopes.  A great new addition to my enjoyment of tsuba collecting!

 

With respect,

Dan

 

 

nanban 1 .bmp nanban 2.bmp nanban 4.bmp

[rematron]

@rkg, thanks for that information!  Most of it is Greek to me but I'll get there. LOL.  The youtube video I'm sure will be helpful and I plan on trying to find some more of them dealing with macro photography.  What I've really learned so far is that lighting is extremely important.  I'm a little blown away by the options of microscopes out there.  If I were rich I'd go for the 4-in-1 Keyence VHX-7000N Stereoscopic-Metalurgical-Electron-Measuring Microscope ($23,000 USD for a used older model) because that would be awesome!  Alas, I'm far from rich.  I'm liking the $200-$400 range, digital microscopes on Amazon with the screen you can look at.  They look fun and easy to use but probably aren't powerful enough or have enough options for more than looking at coins and bugs close-up.  I do have a very nice DSLR, just need to learn how to use it.  And use it in combination with a microscope.  So that's another option.  

 

@Dan tsuba, thanks for your examples!  I'm starting to get an idea of what I'm getting myself into.  I just learned last night that the macro ability on my iPhone is pretty decent.  

 

Investigation and learning aside, I'm looking froward to looking at the detail of the wonderful miniscule work that is tosogu.

[rematron]

Laugh away if this was well known. I never really had reason to think about it before.  haha.  So, a few minutes ago I randomly wondered if cast iron weighs differently than steel or other kinds of iron alloys.  I guessed that cast iron would be lighter by volume, so I went to the old internet and asked the world.  According to this steel company, that is indeed the case.  weightspercubicfoot.pdf (coyotesteel.com)  I've never been a great fan of doing math but it sure can be useful.  So, we can tell what a tsuba is made out of by doing math.  Volume can be discovered via liquid displacement and weight by a very accurate scale.  Then comes the math.  

 

I'm just beginning this thought process so pardon the "thinking outloud".  It can't be as easy as this, can it?

 

PS: Can you tell this is an American steel company? 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again Jeremy,

 

Evidently there are a lot of options out there for macro photography of tosogu!

 

I think I am getting interested in keeping a computer file on my tsuba that I think may be made from cast iron that I will photograph using macro photography.  That way I can refer to a specific tsuba and “see” what I have seen!

 

I wonder if any other collectors of tosogu (besides Richard, me, and you) have looked at (or considered looking at) their pieces using a stereoscopic setup or a microscope?

 

Also, a great bit of research about the different weight of cast iron versus steel!  But wouldn’t that have to be the same exact object made of steel and then the exact same object made of cast iron to determine which is which by weight?  I don’t know, I am not a metallurgist or any kind of scientist!

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[rematron]

Hi Dan,

 

Well, that's the great part about this, you don't need duplicates of different material at all!   Theoretically, you can take any tsuba in of itself and determine what it's made out of.  Once you have the measurements of volume and weight as it is, you can do the math (cross multiplication in this case, I believe) to discover how much it would weigh if you had a cubic foot of it.  Once you have the weight per cubic foot, you simply look at the chart.  And voila! 

 

Cheers!

[Dan tsuba]

That sounds great!  But I can't help but thinking, if it was that easy why haven't others done it before?  That sure would put an end to determining if a tsuba was cast from a high carbon content iron (cast iron) or hand forged from a lower carbon content iron (wrought iron, or steel).  Hmm???

 

Onward!

Dan

 

[rematron]

Yeah, hence my question: “It can’t be as easy as this, can it?”  Well, there are a couple things I can think of that are problematic.  The first is petty: It’s not kosher to submerge your antique iron tsuba in water.  My response to that is: hairdryer.  Also, tsuba got plenty wet in Japan throughout history.  Just imagine a legion of samurai walking to battle in the rain.  “Hey, don’t get your tsuba wet!  It’s gonna be worth a lot some day.”  The second is:  If cast iron is treated after it is cast to become malleable, will that change its weight and will that weight still be lighter than steel or wrought iron?  For the answer to that question I will need to consult a metallurgist. 

[rkg]

Jeremy,

 

First off, on the new i phone - I have a pal that has gotten pretty good macro results just shooting through a jeweler's loupe - not exactly repeatable or anything, but when everything aligns it works and you can get some decent images.

 

Sorry about the greek tome on using a microscope for this stuff - it was the muscle relaxants talkin'

 

A lot of those low end inspection options are actually not bad, you can learn a lot with them, but its hard to get really good images (sensors used are necessarily low end), and since that's my groove...  I tend to troll for used older gear - sometimes you get lucky....

 

Rant about working at places with amazing metrology gear before I got interested in this stuff omitted.

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[1kinko]

Well, once you know the amount of slag and other impurities remaining in your iron/steel then you have to be able to measure the content in 200 gm rather than pounds per square foot and account for the measurement error. All of the non-invasive methods I’ve found (regarding the composition of Japanese swords and helmets) only penetrate the surface in the nm to um range.

[Dan tsuba]

So, over a couple of weeks I have been looking at several tsuba in my collection with my stereoscopic microscope with eyepiece digital camera attached to take pictures on my computer (you just take out one of the microscope eypieces and place the digital camera where the eyepiece would be - simple!).

 

Wow!  It adds a whole new dimension to tsuba collecting and is so much better than just using a magnifying glass!  You get to see really close-up details of carvings, inlays, surface texture and other stuff that you could not make out using your eyes alone without the microscope.

 

Personally, I would recommend that if you can get a stereoscopic microscope do it!  It is a neat way to scientifically look at and view tsuba!  I don’t know why I never thought of this before!

 

You can purchase a stereoscopic microscope and an eyepiece digital camera, or they make the microscope with its own viewing screen!  If you search around on the internet, you can probably find either one for a very reasonable price (much less than you probably would pay for a tsuba!).

 

Well, got to get back to looking at more tsuba through the stereo microscope!

 

The adventure continues!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/134507311431  I just bought one of these, pretty reasonable price. I will let the forum know how worthwhile it is when it arrives next week. It has usb and card storage for images, along with its own lighting - don't know what else you would need? If nothing else it looks the part for "Tsubaologists"!

[rematron]

Thanks for taking the plunge, Dale! That’s the same kind I was thinking about getting. I thought it would be fun to get some super closeups of my growing collection.  Looking forward to your review.